<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Well as you know my nemesis is the stall turn with 1/2 rolls. Probably because I got used to doing a stall turn with full roll in Intermediate. If you fly that maneuver in Advanced well you deserve what you get (you DID give me a big fat "0" I hope).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I remember calling for someone in Intermediate one time and when I called the Outside loop from the top she said "I don't do that one, what's next?". I guess that's one way to deal with a "scary" maneuver. LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 5/11/09, Ron Van Putte <I><vanputte@cox.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte@cox.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 12:48 PM<BR><BR><PRE>We all have maneuvers we don't like to perform, usually because we
haven't practiced them enough or in the right way to do them well. However
that's no excuse to say that the maneuver shouldn't be in the schedule.
I remember doing three rolls longer ago than most of you have been alive. I
didn't know better then and my airplanes were always nose heavy. That made
for a lot of down elevator being required when the airplane was inverted. I
finally learned how to overcome this self-imposed problem through practice.
Don't even ask me about how I overcame the problems with the three outside
loops from the top.
Ron
On May 10, 2009, at 10:57 PM, John Pavlick wrote:
> Nice. Not everyone flies ARF's you know. :)
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte"
<vanputte@cox.net>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Get better or crash?
>
> Ron
>
> On May 10, 2009, at 10:42 PM, John Pavlick wrote:
>
>> Ron,
>> I agree. That maneuver is fine for Masters class. The point I was
trying to make was that if Masters guys are challenged by a maneuver like this,
what do you think will happen to an Intermediate pilot when faced with a
similar situation?
>>
>> John Pavlick
>> http://www.idseng.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte"
<vanputte@cox.net>
>> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 7:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>> That's what's called a "personal problem". I find
that the Two of
>> Two 1/2 Rolls, Opposite is very difficult to keep in the box and,
>> using the logic I've sometimes seen here, it should be removed
from
>> the Master class maneuver schedule. It won't and shouldn't.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In that post George is referring to the 3 horizontal rolls that
used to
>>> be in what is now Intermediate. It really wasn’t that hard to
fit in the
>>> box as long as you started early. The problem that most people
have is
>>> they wait way too long to start the rolling stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:18 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What schedule are we talking about? I thought it was the Masters
>>> schedule.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: George W.Kennie
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:18 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember, the maneuver is performed after a previous box exit.
So, you
>>> enter the box, have all day to set up for it, and you're only
doing 1 &
>>> 1/2 rolls either side of center. I've seen guys use this
much space
>>> doing the current 2 point with a significant hesitation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Archie is right on the money. That's the reason I use the old,
old
>>> Intermediate schedule to train newbies. If I can get 'em thru
this thing,
>>> then the current schedules are duck soup for them. It's like
practicing
>>> the P-09 and then going to a contest and flying Sportsman.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: John Pavlick
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:18 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Georgie,
>>>
>>> Did you ever see anyone REALLY grease that maneuver? I
haven't. It ALWAYS
>>> looks rushed. And these are Masters pilots. Big difference
between them
>>> and Intermediate pilots. The only way it would work is if both
>>> turnarounds (before and after the maneuver) were something like a
stall
>>> turn or a half square loop. Anything else would be tough for an
>>> Intermediate pilot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: George W.Kennie
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two
of Two
>>> folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry
and exit
>>> lines, and people still think that you can't get three
consecutive rolls
>>> in the box.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stymies me !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who else?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Glen Watson
>>>
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman
>>> sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls. I flew
2cycle then
>>> (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the
box as
>>> well as centering. I believe this built many early skill sets
that have
>>> helped me in the long run over the years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges
to ones
>>> current skill set. Without a challenge why do pattern at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hochhalter
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t
think they
>>> lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls into the
box,
>>> let alone be ready to center them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ronlock@comcast.net
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Re comments below-
>>> I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has
two rolls,
>>> and not three, is-
>>> Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most
>>> intermediate pilots -
>>> And two is enough for judging- Particularly, if you see two
going
>>> badly, not many of us
>>> want to see a third.
>>>
>>> Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year
because of
>>> beating 4 other pilots -
>>> That is already fixed. The 2009 rule "..flier must move out
of
>>> Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second
or
>>> subsequent year of participation if he/she places first or second
and
>>> above at least 4 other fliers..."
>>>
>>> Ron Lockhart
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot@wowway.com>
>>> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4. The
two
>>> rolls are still kicking my you know what. I can do one slow roll
and one
>>> 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls. I’m certain that the
average
>>> advance pilot would really have trouble with 3 rolls. I see a
lot of
>>> intermediate, advanced and sometimes even masters pilots almost
loose
>>> airplanes on the horizontal rolling maneuvers. They shouldn’t
be
>>> underestimated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a
guideline. I
>>> had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after my first year
in
>>> sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots. I was flying a Kaos and
the
>>> other pilots were all flying their 1st contests with trainers.
They had
>>> no chance. In the end I’m glade I moved up but at the time it
made me
>>> real nervous. I was so determined to fly pattern that I decided
to give
>>> it the old college try in intermediate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
>>> Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these
>>> situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "jeffghughes@comcast.net"
<jeffghughes@comcast.net>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> Bob,
>>>
>>> I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter
got
>>> sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has
regressed,
>>> and my confidence along with it.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com>
>>> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> I know you’re joking some Bob, but I think you’re actually a
great
>>> example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed
nicely
>>> through the system, but then when you got to Masters…a time
when you
>>> really need to practice even more to be competitive, your job
suddenly
>>> changed, home life became more complex, and you’re lucky to
fly 10
>>> practice flights a year outside of contests. Your experience
and skill
>>> would allow you to be competitive in Advanced, without dominating
and
>>> likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler to that crowd, rather
than
>>> trying to fly masters without hardly even knowing the pattern.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You’re the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to
choose
>>> where they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob Kane
>>> getterflash@yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "jeffghughes@comcast.net"
<jeffghughes@comcast.net>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey@suddenlink.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't
really
>>> care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I just
knew that
>>> I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While it's
nice to win a
>>> trophy in the lower classes, I understood I wasn't competing
against the
>>> best pilots anyway. From what I've seen there is a huge
variation of
>>> talent within a class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly
that wouldn't
>>> win in advanced if they bumped back down (maybe not even in
>>> intermediate). People move up for all kinds of reasons unrelated
to skill
>>> level. It's also interesting that we talk about using each
class to
>>> improve our flying until we get to Masters, then it appears
nobody wants
>>> to improve to FAI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>