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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have to smile when I think of this. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In my very first pattern contest ever, I flew
Intermediate. Not because I decided that that was where I belonged, but because
my buddy Billy was flying that class. As I remember, Tom Loose was my
caller,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and when he called " Three Horizontal Rolls ", I
entered the box, got positioned, and started rolling. They looked so good that I
decided that anything that was going that well shouldn't stop so I threw in an
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>extra one which zeroed the maneuver for
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Dancereau's were judging and at the time I
think I thought they were too tough.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't think I agree that three rolls are too
tough for Intermediate. I also like the three loops as most people can do two
with reasonable consistancy, but when it comes time to superimpose that third
element</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the placement and positioning somehow seems to
divulge how lucky the first two were, so it really developes within the pilot's
conciousness the need for precision practice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As far as sequences go, I think I like the idea of
rotating sequence generation thru the districts. Sounds like a good idea to me.
If you fly a sequence (above Sportsman) with concious concern for elemental
execution requirements as regards specific inputs required for precision,
positioning, wind correction, upwind/downwind entries, e.t.c., then it's not all
that difficult to come up with a sequence with good flow characteristics. With
the pool of upper eschelon pilots in each district it shouldn't be a problem,
and district generation might just influence the flavor in a way that keeps new
sequences interesting.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just thinking,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@suddenlink.net href="mailto:don.ramsey@suddenlink.net">Don
Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 08, 2009 12:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Advancement System</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Sorry,
I had the wrong class.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I meant
Intermediate.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don’t think it is
a good maneuver for that class either and for the same
reasons.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B><A
href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">jonlowe@aol.com</A><BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May
08, 2009 9:06 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Don,<BR>Arch said to put three rolls
into Intermediate, NOT Sportsman. I agree with him. SPA does it in
their equivalent of Intermediate, and I've never seen it as being an airplane
killer. Heck, I did it in the late 60's with a Phoenix 5 in Class A, as I
recall, before I laid off of RC for 35 years. Also did 3 inside
loops.<BR><BR>I do disagree with Arch about the length of Sportsman. I'm
not that far removed from those days since I returned to RC, and I remember
people begging CD's to let them do two sequences per flight, because it was
way too short before they increased it. The vertical on center is a
useful maneuver. It is amazing how hard it is for some pilots to do
correctly. Doesn't have to be long, or with huge radii. Any sport
airplane can do it. We do need to keep from using the same maneuver
twice in the Sportsman pattern though.<BR><BR>I think there is a great
sequence of building on skills between the various patterns. Take the
outside loop, to outside 6 sided loop, to inside 8 sided from the top.
And the stall turn with 1/4 rolls, to 3/4 rolls, to Figure M.<BR><BR>Two areas
we need to improve on is teaching controlled rolling in both directions on a
horizontal line, and I'm talking full rolls of some sort. The current
advanced pattern doesn't do this. And as I've harped on for years, we
need to teach inverted entries and exits before Masters.&n bsp; There is
one in Intermediate, none in advanced, and 8 or so in
Masters.<BR><BR>Jon</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey@suddenlink.net><BR>To:
'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent:
Fri, 8 May 2009 8:32 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement
System<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_cd84eaa8-6b34-4318-a002-b65cec79978d>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I disagree
with Arch about the 3 rolls. I think this is an aircraft killer.
It killed a lot planes when we did it. Don’t require maneuvers in the
early patterns that put the aircraft at high risk.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">There are
other maneuvers that teach the skills to do the slow roll and point rolls with
little risk to the plane. To do the 3 rolls properly takes a lot of real
estate and requires other skills that the Sportsman pilot is not equipped to
handle. When it was in the sequence people did get through it but very
few performed it well and I thought it did not teach much toward advancement
of the skills required of rolls in the other patterns. Slow rolls and
point rolls are very easy compared to the skills required to do 3
rolls.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Don</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>
[<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 08, 2009 7:59
AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Richard,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">So
your answer about the 3 rolls is lets not put it in, because it is hard?
It was a maneuver that was done for years with no problems, but it did make
you learn to fly through the rolls. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
vertical upline doesn’t really teach much. Try it with a .40 size sport
plane. You are right, it doesn’t have to be a certain height. But you
better be starting high as the next maneuver is a split S. Those last 5
maneuvers don’t really teach anything. Sportsman should be about
introducing people to pattern and allowing the guy with the .40 sport plane a
chance to compete. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Arch</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>
[<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.ns%20%20rca.org?"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard Lewis<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 08, 2009 6:47
AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Arch,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The vertical upline is a great teaching maneuver for
sportsman and requires no more power than a stall turn. There
is NO criteria for the length of this line, and a box entry just before
it. I tell every sportsman pilot I meet, no matter what they are flying
this: Enter the box as high as necessary to do as short an upline as possible
or that the plane is capable of and setup for the split-S.
Overall, it's a quick and easy lesson in airspace management. The
radii are also not specified, just need to be equal. So often we see
sportsman approach center and pull a radically tight radius and expose
nasty attitude changes. This ia another opportunity to teach. It
is also an easy, low risk lesson in aircraft attitude and trimming, as
transitioning through a radius from horizontal to vertical directly in front
of you requires decent trimming (right thrust, etc...) and also a degree of
confidence that the wings are level. Also a opportunity to
teach.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Put three rolls in intermediate and watch the intermediate
pilots drop like flies........<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Richard<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Archie Stafford
<<A href="mailto:astafford@swtexas.net"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">astafford@swtexas.net</SPAN></U></A>><BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">jpavlick@idseng.com</SPAN></U></A>; General pattern
discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, May 7, 2009 7:42:50 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Advancement System</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
think one thing we need to really get back to basics on is designing the
schedules based around the skills necessary to be able to move on to the next
sequence. I think we have picked a bunch of maneuv ers, but are missing
out on what skills are needed. The current sportsman sequence is way too
long and requires a lot more power than a beginner sequence should.
There was a time when you could fly a .40 sport plane and be competitive, but
those days are gone. What is gained by the vertical upline on center
maneuver? You have to have a plane with a reasonable thrust to weight
ratio as the next maneuver is a split s. There are 2 half reverse Cuban
eights. You could conceivably get rid of the last 5 maneuvers and not be
missing anything. You would also allow a true .40 size first low wing
plane a chance at being competitive. I understand the argument that
theoretically those planes are already competitive, but in reality they
aren’t. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
biggest thing that people in sportsman need is the basic understanding of a
contest and the ability to learn to fly a straight line and maintain
altitude. Then as you progress you can add other maneuvers.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Two
maneuvers I think need to be put back into intermediate are the 3 horizontal
rolls…3, not 2. With 3 you have to learn to fly through them.
Also, the double stall turn was a great maneuver for that sequence.
Straight inverted flight is another important element that gets missed, even
with the inverted exit. As you progress into Advanced maybe
introduce snaps and a spin, with a couple more inverted exits to actually
prepare someone for Masters. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
think if the sequences get viewed as building blocks, then the maneuvers
needed will take care of themselves. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Just
my .02,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Arch</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>
[<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Pavlick<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Bill,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> What district are you in? Maybe Ziggy
and I will take a road trip this summer. That could make things
interesting for you guys. I'm staying in Advanced as long as I can
or at least until I lose my day job. :)<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>=2 0 <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 5/7/09, Bill Glaze
<I><<A href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">billglaze@bellsouth.net</SPAN></U></A>></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">
<P class=MsoNormal>From: Bill Glaze <<A
href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">billglaze@bellsouth.net</SPAN></U></A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<BR>To: "General pattern
discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>><BR>Date:
Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:36 PM<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1772817569>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Joe:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Advanced last weekend
in Winston = 0 contestants. A couple of weeks ago in Green Sea:
Advanced = 1 contestant. I don't believe that we've had more
than 4 contestants in Advanced in a single contest for 2 years--maybe
more. I haven't thought much about just why that might be, but
right now, it's a very unpopular class. 20I concur that most of
the dropouts seem to be either from the Advanced class, or, from those
who are forced into the Advanced class. No matter how/why
they're forced to move up, it's just the way it is right
now.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Bill
Glaze</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=jlachow@hotmail.com href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Joe Lachowski</SPAN></U></A>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA Di scussion List</SPAN></U></A>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:32 AM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement
System</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I'm for getting rid of advancement in the
Advanced class for one. This is the
class a number flyers who stick around seem to hit
their skill level wall and disappear. It also appears to be
the smallest class attended at local contests these days. At
least in D1 it is.<BR> <BR>I'd also like to see the option of
being able to move back after one year in the next higher class.
This would be a allowed one time only.<BR> <BR> To make
frequent sequence change doable, instead of having to come up with
new ones every 4 years or so, maybe we should just come up with
a good set of say 4 for each class. You can rotate
through them every 2 years and start from the first one all
over again after they've cycled through. This cou ld easily be
done for Intermediate and Advanced. Probably even Masters. After
about 8 years the pool of flyers for the most part will have changed
in each class anyway. Establishing these sequences will
probably take a well thought process of about two years by some
dedicated people willing to take it on. You could also just change a
handful of maneuvers in these sequences after the 8 year cycle to
keep things a little fresh for those that are
still flying a particular class after the 8 year
cycle. This is a lot of work up front but in teh long run it is
easier. <BR> <BR> As far as Sportsman goes, you just need
one good sequence that teaches the basic skills to get you to
Intermediate. The one we have now is pretty close if not good
enough.<BR> <BR>Just some ideas.<BR> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>From: <A
href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</SPAN></U></A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A><BR>Date:
Thu, 7 May 2009 10:48:08 -0400<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Advancement System<BR><BR>Good idea Earl. I think
peer pressure alone will suffice but if we want an organize system
this has merit. <BR> Do we realize if we allow=2 0the
other classes to become destinations then the sequences should
change more
frequently. <BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">
<P class=MsoNormal>From: <A
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">ejhaury@comcast.net</SPAN></U></A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A><BR>Date:
Thu, 7 May 2009 09:24:18 -0500<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Advancement System<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In the discussion
regarding the Masters sequence / length a few competitors mentioned
that increasing the difficulty would cause them to stop competing.
Folks, this needs to be addressed! We can't tolerate a system where
folks are forced to a level where they can't enjoy pattern and/or
chose to quit. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">There are generally two
views of the current system. One is that it is cast in stone and
needed to force the "trophy hound" to move to the proper class.
The other is that peer pressure alone will result in proper
classification. I think that there's a third possibility, some folks
prematurely mo ve to a higher class for the "prestige" of that
class. There's likely reality / unreality to each
view which supports that some process is needed. While there
have been some changes to smooth the advancement
process, nothing has changed for a person who finds themselves
in a class that exceeds their skills. I know - there's a process to
petition for dropping to a lower class, but it's intended for
hardship cases rather than being
uncompetitive.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">OK - going back to the
first paragraph - how might we fix this? My suggestion is to change
the rules so that folks who gather points in the lower percentile of
a class for X number of events (or rounds, or time span?) have the
option to stay where they are, or move back a class. The current
advancement rules would be applied to folks in the upper percentile.
It seems that this would provide an option for the casual competitor
to seek a comfort level and retain a reasonable advancement process
for the serious competitor. Of course there are administrative
issues, probably best to simply use data within each district, as
most already track points for district championships. A district
based data set would also best weight performance within one's local
peer group.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>=2 0 <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Just my thoughts - how
about the group discussing this
some.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Earl</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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