<div> <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don,<br>
Arch said to put three rolls into Intermediate, NOT Sportsman. I agree with him. SPA does it in their equivalent of Intermediate, and I've never seen it as being an airplane killer. Heck, I did it in the late 60's with a Phoenix 5 in Class A, as I recall, before I laid off of RC for 35 years. Also did 3 inside loops.<br>
<br>
I do disagree with Arch about the length of Sportsman. I'm not that far removed from those days since I returned to RC, and I remember people begging CD's to let them do two sequences per flight, because it was way too short before they increased it. The vertical on center is a useful maneuver. It is amazing how hard it is for some pilots to do correctly. Doesn't have to be long, or with huge radii. Any sport airplane can do it. We do need to keep from using the same maneuver twice in the Sportsman pattern though.<br>
<br>
I think there is a great sequence of building on skills between the various patterns. Take the outside loop, to outside 6 sided loop, to inside 8 sided from the top. And the stall turn with 1/4 rolls, to 3/4 rolls, to Figure M.<br>
<br>
Two areas we need to improve on is teaching controlled rolling in both directions on a horizontal line, and I'm talking full rolls of some sort. The current advanced pattern doesn't do this. And as I've harped on for years, we need to teach inverted entries and exits before Masters.&n
bsp; There is one in Intermediate, none in advanced, and 8 or so in Masters.<br>
<br>
Jon<br>
</font></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey@suddenlink.net><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 8:32 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<br>
<br>
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<div class3D"Section1">
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I disagree with Arch about the 3 rolls.<span style=""> </span>I think this is an aircraft killer.<span style=""> </span>It killed a lot planes when we did it.<span style=""> </span>Don’t require maneuvers in the early patterns
that put the aircraft at high risk.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">There are other maneuvers that teach the skills to do the slow
roll and point rolls with little risk to the plane.<span style=""> </span>To do the 3 rolls properly takes a lot of
real estate and requires other skills that the Sportsman pilot is not equipped
to handle.<span style=""> </span>When it was in the sequence
people did get through it but very few performed it well and I thought it did
not teach much toward advancement of the skills required of rolls in the other
patterns.<span style=""> </span>Slow rolls and point rolls are
very easy compared to the skills required to do 3 rolls.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Don</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:=2 0rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Archie
Stafford<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 7:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Richard,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So your answer about the 3 rolls is lets not put it in, because
it is hard? It was a maneuver that was done for years with no problems,
but it did make you learn to fly through the rolls. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri",&q uot;sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The vertical upline doesn’t really teach much. Try it with
a .40 size sport plane. You are right, it doesn’t have to be a certain
height. But you better be starting high as the next maneuver is a split
S. Those last 5 maneuvers don’t really teach anything. Sportsman
should be about introducing people to pattern and allowing the guy with the .40
sport plane a chance to compete. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Arch</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.ns rca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Lewis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 6:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">Arch,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">The vertical upline is a great teaching maneuver for
sportsman and requires no more power than a stall turn. There
is NO criteria for the length of this line, and a box entry just before
it. I tell every sportsman pilot I meet, no matter what they are flying
this: Enter the box as high as necessary to do as short an upline as possible
or that the plane is capable of and setup for the split-S.
Overall, it's a quick and easy lesson in airspace management. The
radii are also not specified, just need to be equal. So often we see
sportsman approach center and pull a radically tight radius and expose
nasty attitude changes. This ia another opportunity to teach. It is
also an easy, low risk lesson in aircraft attitude and trimming, as
transitioning through a radius from horizontal to vertical directly in front of
you requires decent trimming (right thrust, etc...) and also a degree of
confidence that the wings are level. Also a opportunity to teach.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">Put three rolls in intermediate and watch the intermediate
pilots drop like flies........</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">Richard</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Archie Stafford
<<a href="mailto:astafford@swtexas.net">astafford@swtexas.net</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>; General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 7, 2009 7:42:50 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think one thing we need to really get back to basics on is
designing the schedules based around the skills necessary to be able to move on
to the next sequence. I think we have picked a bunch of maneuv
ers, but
are missing out on what skills are needed. The current sportsman sequence
is way too long and requires a lot more power than a beginner sequence
should. There was a time when you could fly a .40 sport plane and be
competitive, but those days are gone. What is gained by the vertical
upline on center maneuver? You have to have a plane with a reasonable
thrust to weight ratio as the next maneuver is a split s. There are 2
half reverse Cuban eights. You could conceivably get rid of the last 5
maneuvers and not be missing anything. You would also allow a true .40
size first low wing plane a chance at being competitive. I understand the
argument that theoretically those planes are already competitive, but in
reality they aren’t. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The biggest thing that people in sportsman need is the basic
understanding of a contest and the ability to learn to fly a straight line and
maintain altitude. Then as you progress you can add other maneuvers.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibr i","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Two maneuvers I think need to be put back into intermediate are
the 3 horizontal rolls…3, not 2. With 3 you have to learn to fly through
them. Also, the double stall turn was a great maneuver for that
sequence. Straight inverted flight is another important element that gets
missed, even with the inverted exit. As you progress into Advanced
maybe introduce snaps and a spin, with a couple more inverted exits to actually
prepare someone for Masters. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think if the sequences get viewed as building blocks, then the
maneuvers needed will take care of themselves. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Just my .02,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Arch</span></div>
<div class3D"MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Pavlick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr style="">
<td style="padding: 0in;" valign="top">
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">Bill,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> What district are you in? Maybe Ziggy and I
will take a road trip this summer. That could make things interesting for you
guys. I'm staying in Advanced as long as I can or at least until I lose
my day job. :)</div>
=2
0 </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal">John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Thu, 5/7/09, Bill Glaze <i><<a href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">From: Bill Glaze
<<a href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:36 PM</div>
<div id="yiv1772817569">
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Joe:</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Advanced
last weekend in Winston = 0 contestants. A couple of weeks ago in Green
Sea: Advanced = 1 contestant. I don't believe that we've had more than
4 contestants in Advanced in a single contest for 2 years--maybe more.
I haven't thought much about just why that might be, but right now, it's a
very unpopular class. 20I concur that most of the dropouts seem to be
either from the Advanced class, or, from those who are forced into the
Advanced class. No matter how/why they're forced to move up,
it's just the way it is right now.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Bill Glaze</span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">-----
Original Message ----- </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> <a href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com" title="jlachow@hotmail.com">Joe Lachowski</a> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Di
scussion List</a> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Thursday, May 07,
2009 11:32 AM</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">I'm for getting rid of advancement in the Advanced class
for one. This is the class a number flyers who stick around
seem to hit their skill level wall and disappear. It also appears to be
the smallest class attended at local contests these days. At least in
D1 it is.<br>
<br>
I'd also like to see the option of being able to move back after one year in
the next higher class. This would be a allowed one time only.<br>
<br>
To make frequent sequence change doable, instead of having to come up
with new ones every 4 years or so, maybe we should just come up with
a good set of say 4 for each class. You can rotate
through them every 2 years and start from the first one all over again
after they've cycled through. This cou
ld easily be done for Intermediate
and Advanced. Probably even Masters. After about 8 years the pool of flyers
for the most part will have changed in each class anyway. Establishing
these sequences will probably take a well thought process of about two years
by some dedicated people willing to take it on. You could also just change a
handful of maneuvers in these sequences after the 8 year cycle to keep things
a little fresh for those that are still flying a
particular class after the 8 year cycle. This is a lot of work up front
but in teh long run it is easier. <br>
<br>
As far as Sportsman goes, you just need one good sequence that
teaches the basic skills to get you to Intermediate. The one we have now is
pretty close if not good enough.<br>
<br>
Just some ideas.<br>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">From: <a href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:48:08 -0400<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<br>
<br>
Good idea Earl. I think peer pressure alone will suffice but
if we want an organize system this has merit. <br>
Do we realize if we allow=2
0the other classes to become destinations then
the sequences should change more frequently. <br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">From: <a href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:24:18 -0500<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">In the
discussion regarding the Masters sequence / length a few competitors
mentioned that increasing the difficulty would cause them to stop competing.
Folks, this needs to be addressed! We can't tolerate a system where folks are
forced to a level where they can't enjoy pattern and/or chose to quit. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">There are
generally two views of the current system. One is that it is cast in stone
and needed to force the "trophy hound" to move to the proper
class. The other is that peer pressure alone will result in proper
classification. I think that there's a third possibility, some folks
prematurely mo
ve to a higher class for the "prestige" of that
class. There's likely reality / unreality to each view which
supports that some process is needed. While there have been some changes to
smooth the advancement process, nothing has changed for a person who
finds themselves in a class that exceeds their skills. I know - there's a
process to petition for dropping to a lower class, but it's intended for
hardship cases rather than being uncompetitive.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">OK - going
back to the first paragraph - how might we fix this? My suggestion is to
change the rules so that folks who gather points in the lower percentile of a
class for X number of events (or rounds, or time span?) have the option to
stay where they are, or move back a class. The current advancement rules
would be applied to folks in the upper percentile. It seems that this would
provide an option for the casual competitor to seek a comfort level and
retain a reasonable advancement process for the serious competitor. Of course
there are administrative issues, probably best to simply use data within each
district, as most already track points for district championships. A district
based data set would also best weight performance within one's local peer
group.</span></div>
</div>
=2
0
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Just my
thoughts - how about the group discussing this some.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Earl</span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
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