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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Richard,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So your answer about the 3 rolls is lets not put it in, because
it is hard? It was a maneuver that was done for years with no problems, but it
did make you learn to fly through the rolls. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The vertical upline doesn’t really teach much. Try it with a
.40 size sport plane. You are right, it doesn’t have to be a certain height. But
you better be starting high as the next maneuver is a split S. Those last 5
maneuvers don’t really teach anything. Sportsman should be about introducing
people to pattern and allowing the guy with the .40 sport plane a chance to
compete. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arch<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard
Lewis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 6:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Arch,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The vertical upline is a great teaching maneuver for
sportsman and requires no more power than a stall turn. There
is NO criteria for the length of this line, and a box entry just before
it. I tell every sportsman pilot I meet, no matter what they are flying
this: Enter the box as high as necessary to do as short an upline as possible
or that the plane is capable of and setup for the split-S.
Overall, it's a quick and easy lesson in airspace management. The
radii are also not specified, just need to be equal. So often we see
sportsman approach center and pull a radically tight radius and expose
nasty attitude changes. This ia another opportunity to teach. It is
also an easy, low risk lesson in aircraft attitude and trimming, as
transitioning through a radius from horizontal to vertical directly in front of
you requires decent trimming (right thrust, etc...) and also a degree of
confidence that the wings are level. Also a opportunity to teach.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Put three rolls in intermediate and watch the intermediate
pilots drop like flies........<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Richard<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Archie Stafford
<astafford@swtexas.net><br>
<b>To:</b> jpavlick@idseng.com; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 7, 2009 7:42:50 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think one thing we need to really get back to basics on is
designing the schedules based around the skills necessary to be able to move on
to the next sequence. I think we have picked a bunch of maneuvers, but
are missing out on what skills are needed. The current sportsman sequence
is way too long and requires a lot more power than a beginner sequence
should. There was a time when you could fly a .40 sport plane and be
competitive, but those days are gone. What is gained by the vertical
upline on center maneuver? You have to have a plane with a reasonable
thrust to weight ratio as the next maneuver is a split s. There are 2
half reverse Cuban eights. You could conceivably get rid of the last 5
maneuvers and not be missing anything. You would also allow a true .40
size first low wing plane a chance at being competitive. I understand the
argument that theoretically those planes are already competitive, but in
reality they aren’t. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The biggest thing that people in sportsman need is the basic
understanding of a contest and the ability to learn to fly a straight line and
maintain altitude. Then as you progress you can add other
maneuvers. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Two maneuvers I think need to be put back into intermediate are
the 3 horizontal rolls…3, not 2. With 3 you have to learn to fly through
them. Also, the double stall turn was a great maneuver for that
sequence. Straight inverted flight is another important element that gets
missed, even with the inverted exit. As you progress into Advanced
maybe introduce snaps and a spin, with a couple more inverted exits to actually
prepare someone for Masters. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think if the sequences get viewed as building blocks, then the
maneuvers needed will take care of themselves. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Just my .02,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arch</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Pavlick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bill,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> What district are you in? Maybe Ziggy and I
will take a road trip this summer. That could make things interesting for you
guys. I'm staying in Advanced as long as I can or at least until I lose
my day job. :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Thu, 5/7/09, Bill Glaze <i><billglaze@bellsouth.net></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: Bill Glaze
<billglaze@bellsouth.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:36 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=yiv1772817569>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Joe:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Advanced
last weekend in Winston = 0 contestants. A couple of weeks ago in Green
Sea: Advanced = 1 contestant. I don't believe that we've had more than
4 contestants in Advanced in a single contest for 2 years--maybe more.
I haven't thought much about just why that might be, but right now, it's a
very unpopular class. I concur that most of the dropouts seem to be
either from the Advanced class, or, from those who are forced into the
Advanced class. No matter how/why they're forced to move up,
it's just the way it is right now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bill Glaze</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com"
target="_blank" title="jlachow@hotmail.com">Joe Lachowski</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Discussion List</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, May 07,
2009 11:32 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'm for getting rid of advancement in the Advanced class
for one. This is the class a number flyers who stick around
seem to hit their skill level wall and disappear. It also appears to be
the smallest class attended at local contests these days. At least in
D1 it is.<br>
<br>
I'd also like to see the option of being able to move back after one year in
the next higher class. This would be a allowed one time only.<br>
<br>
To make frequent sequence change doable, instead of having to come up
with new ones every 4 years or so, maybe we should just come up with
a good set of say 4 for each class. You can rotate
through them every 2 years and start from the first one all over again
after they've cycled through. This could easily be done for Intermediate
and Advanced. Probably even Masters. After about 8 years the pool of flyers
for the most part will have changed in each class anyway. Establishing
these sequences will probably take a well thought process of about two years
by some dedicated people willing to take it on. You could also just change a
handful of maneuvers in these sequences after the 8 year cycle to keep things
a little fresh for those that are still flying a particular class
after the 8 year cycle. This is a lot of work up front but in teh long run it
is easier. <br>
<br>
As far as Sportsman goes, you just need one good sequence that
teaches the basic skills to get you to Intermediate. The one we have now is
pretty close if not good enough.<br>
<br>
Just some ideas.<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>From: anthonyr105@hotmail.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:48:08 -0400<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<br>
<br>
Good idea Earl. I think peer pressure alone will suffice but
if we want an organize system this has merit. <br>
Do we realize if we allow the other classes to become destinations then
the sequences should change more frequently. <br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: ejhaury@comcast.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:24:18 -0500<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In the
discussion regarding the Masters sequence / length a few competitors
mentioned that increasing the difficulty would cause them to stop competing.
Folks, this needs to be addressed! We can't tolerate a system where folks are
forced to a level where they can't enjoy pattern and/or chose to quit. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There are
generally two views of the current system. One is that it is cast in stone
and needed to force the "trophy hound" to move to the proper
class. The other is that peer pressure alone will result in proper classification.
I think that there's a third possibility, some folks prematurely move to a
higher class for the "prestige" of that class. There's likely
reality / unreality to each view which supports that some process is
needed. While there have been some changes to smooth the advancement
process, nothing has changed for a person who finds themselves in a
class that exceeds their skills. I know - there's a process to petition for
dropping to a lower class, but it's intended for hardship cases rather than being
uncompetitive.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>OK - going
back to the first paragraph - how might we fix this? My suggestion is to
change the rules so that folks who gather points in the lower percentile of a
class for X number of events (or rounds, or time span?) have the option to
stay where they are, or move back a class. The current advancement rules
would be applied to folks in the upper percentile. It seems that this would
provide an option for the casual competitor to seek a comfort level and
retain a reasonable advancement process for the serious competitor. Of course
there are administrative issues, probably best to simply use data within each
district, as most already track points for district championships. A district
based data set would also best weight performance within one's local peer
group.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Just my
thoughts - how about the group discussing this some.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Earl</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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