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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>This is for the firewall and pipe
tunnel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gfowler@raytheon.com href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E
Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 16, 2009 2:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning
epoxy, how?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Jason</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>Use the finishing resin...if no styrofoam core issues,
cut with acetone of MEK, both sold at Home Depot or Lowes. If the core is
yellow-brown then that is a urethane ridgid foam and okay for acetone/MEK.
<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Senior
Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Radomes and Specialty Apertures<BR>Technical
Staff Composites Engineering<BR>Raytheon</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
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<TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"J Shu"
<jshulman@cfl.rr.com></B> </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1>Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>03/16/2009 01:25 PM</FONT>
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<DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond
to<BR>General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
<TD>
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<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning
epoxy, how?</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
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<TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#000080 size=3>I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><U><BR></U></FONT><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"><FONT
face=Arial color=blue size=2><U>www.shulmanaviation.com</U></FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial color=blue size=2><U><BR></U></FONT><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><U>www.composite-arf.com</U></FONT></A> <BR><FONT size=3>----- Original
Message ----- </FONT><BR><FONT size=3><B>From:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com"><FONT color=blue size=3><U>Gray E
Fowler</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT><BR><FONT size=3><B>To:</B>
</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT color=blue
size=3><U>General pattern discussion</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3>
</FONT><BR><FONT size=3><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=3><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy,
how?</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Jason</FONT><FONT size=3>
<BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>When you say finishing resin do
mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the
horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and
adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength =
bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is
shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress.</FONT><FONT size=3>
<BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>A <B>good</B> adhesive has
thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel
= 0.</FONT><FONT size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>Gray
Fowler<BR>Senior Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Radomes and Specialty
Apertures<BR>Technical Staff Composites Engineering<BR>Raytheon</FONT><FONT
size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
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<TD width="46%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"J Shu"
<jshulman@cfl.rr.com></B> <BR>Sent by:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>03/16/2009 11:46 AM</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><BR>
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<DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond
to<BR>General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P></P>
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<TD width="11%">
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
<TD width="88%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>"General pattern
discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
<TD>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning
epoxy, how?</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR>
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<TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT
size=3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=3><BR>So much good
info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. </FONT><FONT
size=3><BR> </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=3><BR>How bad of
an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns
into the wood surfaces?</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason</FONT><FONT color=blue
size=3><U><BR></U></FONT><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"><FONT
face=Arial color=blue size=2><U>www.shulmanaviation.com</U></FONT></A><FONT
color=blue size=3><U><BR></U></FONT><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><U>www.composite-arf.com</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3> <BR>----- Original
Message ----- <B><BR>From:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com"><FONT color=blue size=3><U>Gray E
Fowler</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3> <B><BR>To:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT color=blue
size=3><U>General pattern discussion</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3>
<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM <B><BR>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2><BR><BR>Jim</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2><BR><BR>Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a
sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester
then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look
out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5%
wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because
any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding
to an area saturated with this resin you are fine.</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>K&B paint was fine, just a
regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be
"inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t
least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly
separate giving you a sticky surface.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works
very well.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>I
always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My
entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating
epoxy.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Senior Principal Chemical
Engineer<BR>Radomes and Specialty Apertures<BR>Technical Staff Composites
Engineering<BR>Raytheon</FONT><FONT size=3> <BR></FONT>
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<TD width="46%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"J N Hiller"
<jnhiller@earthlink.net></B> <BR>Sent by:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>03/16/2009 10:16 AM</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><BR>
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<DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond
to<BR>General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
<TD width="53%"><BR>
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<TD width="11%">
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
<TD width="88%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>"General pattern
discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
<TD>
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<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning
epoxy, how?</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT size=3><BR></FONT><BR>
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<TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT
size=3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><BR><BR>Thank you
for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel
proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I
ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on
these alternate materials?</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>I find fuel proof compromising gouges
are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating.</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Jim Hiller</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Gray E
Fowler<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM<B><BR>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy,
how?</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30
minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in
these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non
reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and
nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing
laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer
lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely
or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very
slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe
for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse.
Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol.
Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene,
Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that
will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the
alcohols.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>SO!</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>1. Use a thin slower cure
laminating resin</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>3. NO
puddles, super thin coat</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam
core</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2><BR>5. rule #3 again</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>6. If you only need the plane to
last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or
so.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Senior Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Radomes
and Specialty Apertures<BR>Technical Staff Composites
Engineering<BR>Raytheon</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
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<TD width="53%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"J Shu"
<jshulman@cfl.rr.com></B> <BR>Sent by:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>03/15/2009 02:15 AM</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
<P><BR>
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<DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond
to<BR>General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
<TD width="85%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>"NSRCA"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
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<TD>
<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>[NSRCA-discussion] thinning
epoxy, how?</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><BR>
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<P><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR><BR><BR>I want to add another layer of
sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it
with epoxy? I've got 30 <BR>minute but not sure how to thin it to seal
it.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com<BR>[attachment
"IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon]
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