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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know what you mean about the ugly stick. My dad
gave me one for christmas because it was his favorite back in the 70's... that
thing lands like a DREAM!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">J Shu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:25
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings
and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just
going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like
Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the
centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I
remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I used to always lose bets with my brother
for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane
for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway,
lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And
then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops
always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs
and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't
be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then
these should be freebie points for the taking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet4@verizon.net href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">George
W.Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=5>There you have it from THE expert
!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">J Shu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'd much rather see take-offs and
landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how
to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to
shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be
scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or
landing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=timsautopro@yahoo.com href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">Tim
Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
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<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn
around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit
the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</DIV>
<DIV>Tim<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><<A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</A>></I></B>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
George W.Kennie <<A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General
pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, March
2, 2009, 4:44 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv380045516>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>I think that dropping the scoring
of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be
only minimally effective. There are always going to be
individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds,
turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they
go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in
the group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>G.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jnhiller@earthlink.net
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>bob@toprudder.com</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02,
2009 3:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a good
argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have
aborted landings more than
once.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll
say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and
landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that
put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators.
I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed
to dangerous situations when they would probably have
been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the
very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people
are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the
Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a
landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one
such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person
in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the
ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and
the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it
back on the runway. At no point did he back off the
throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would
have aborted and started over, but because they are being
judged they keep on pushing a bad
situation.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And,
no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or
Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had
flown pattern for several years. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I
thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in
IMAC.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob
R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>---
On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09, George
W.Kennie <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><geobet4@verizon.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV id=yiv297695904>I don't feel the same way as John on
the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill
element. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require
that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some
precise degree of control over the airframe under our
command. To achieve this control further requires intense
concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that
there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of
concentration required by the pilot are significantly
lower than that required to bring the airframe back into
contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and
confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of
reward in my viewpoint.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">G.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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