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You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it
take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now.
I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down
to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to
fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit
as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings
1 to 10.<br>
Done :)<br>
<br>
J Shu wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:E3BEBD0704CD4D579AF455CA73C52357@UncleJasPC"
type="cite">
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<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">Because it takes time to make
a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the
half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the
time limit was raised.</font></div>
<div><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a><br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jerry@buddengineering.com"
href="mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com">Budd Engineering</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any
other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly
Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular
takes way longer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jerry </div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">I'm certainly not THE
expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern
when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off
or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least
back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern
planes, but scale planes!</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">I used to always lose
bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly
Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center
line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and
break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing
and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next
county so I won the flying bets. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">FAI doesn't need to have
scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't
see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings.
If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the
taking. </font></div>
<div><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a><br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="geobet4@verizon.net"
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">George W.Kennie</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="5">There you have it from THE
expert !!!!!!!!!!!!</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jshulman@cfl.rr.com"
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">J Shu</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">I'd much rather see
take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a
pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if
there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just
because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe
take-off or landing.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a><br>
</font></div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="timsautopro@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">Tim Taylor</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged.
Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them.
Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</div>
<div>Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">From:
George W.Kennie <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv380045516">
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">I think that
dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk
will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be
individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds,
turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go
around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">G.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jnhiller@earthlink.net" href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow">J N Hiller</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">bob@toprudder.com</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel="nofollow">General pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">You make a good argument
for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more
than once.</span></font></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim</span></font></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">I'll say
it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be
judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the
pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing
approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have
been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the
airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one
plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and
the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot
during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in
the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the
plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff
by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back
off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have
aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep
on pushing a bad situation.</span></font><font color="black"
face="inherit"><span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">And, no,
niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate
classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several
years. </span></font><font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">I thank
god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC.</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">JM2CW</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">Bob R.</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Mon, 3/2/09, George
W.Kennie <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">
<div id="yiv297695904">I don't feel the same
way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill
element. <font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
</div>
</span></font> </p>
<font color="black" face="Arial" size="2">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we
demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of
control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control
further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I
would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of
concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that
required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and
demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is
worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</span></font><font color="black"
face="inherit"><span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
</font></div>
<font color="black" face="Arial" size="2">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">G. </span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></p>
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