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Keith's tongue was so far in his cheek when he wrote that last e-mail, I'm afraid he must have hurt himself.<div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br><div><div>On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billglaze wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div><font size="2">Keith:</font></div> <div><font size="2">With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute.</font></div> <div><font size="2">The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice!<G></font></div> <div><font size="2">Bill Glaze</font></div> <blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="khoard@gmail.com" href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">Keith Hoard</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</div> <div><br></div>I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged.<br><br>If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!!<br><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"> <div lang="EN-US" bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div><font size="2">Don:</font></div> <div><font size="2">There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document.</font></div> <div><font size="2">Bill Glaze</font></div> <blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><b>From:</b> <a title="donramsey@gmail.com" href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">Don Ramsey</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">'General pattern discussion'</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</div> <div><br></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing.<span> </span>LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway.<span> </span>LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide.<span> </span></span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points.<span> </span>As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges.<span> </span>Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points).</span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not.<span> </span>For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind.<span> </span>The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I’ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don’t worry about running off the end.</span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Don</span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div> <div style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>George W.Kennie<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p></div></div><div> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"># 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)?</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ?</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight?</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <blockquote style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </span></p></div> <div><p style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title="jlkonn@hotmail.com" href="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com" target="_blank">John Konneker</a> </span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">Discussion List</a> </span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM</span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning:<br><b>Landing: </b></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered <b>complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point</b>. <br>The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. <b>Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone.</b> If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. <br></span><span>Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>JLK<br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br> </span></p> <div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></div><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: <a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target="_blank">geobet4@verizon.net</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Bill,</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">G.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <blockquote style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </span></p></div> <div><p style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title="billglaze@bellsouth.net" href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net" target="_blank">billglaze</a> </span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca- discussion</a> </span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM</span></p></div> <div><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion:</span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time.</span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. </span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once.</span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!)<G> I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list!</span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">thanks</span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill Glaze</span></p></div> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NSRCA 2388</span></p></div> <div><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div> <div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></p></blockquote><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am using the Free version of <a href="http://www.spamfighter.com/len" target="_blank">SPAMfighter</a>.<br>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.<br>SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date.<br>The Professional version does not have this message.</span></p> <div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></p></blockquote><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am using the Free version of <a href="http://www.spamfighter.com/len" target="_blank">SPAMfighter</a>.<br>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.<br>SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date.<br>The Professional version does not have this message.</span></p></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <hr><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>Keith Hoard<br>Collierville, TN<br><a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><br><br><br><div> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>