<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Oh yeah, it's still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field! LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu <I><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: J Shu <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=geobet4@verizon.net href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>George W.Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=5>There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>J Shu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=timsautopro@yahoo.com href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>Tim Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
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<DIV>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</DIV>
<DIV>Tim<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: George W.Kennie <<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>G.</FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>bob@toprudder.com</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did
he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><geobet4@verizon.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<DIV id=yiv297695904>I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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