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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>Because it takes time to make a perfect
take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the
45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was
raised.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jerry@buddengineering.com
href="mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com">Budd Engineering</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings
and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class?
With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys
the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jerry </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <<A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just
going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like
Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the
centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I
remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I used to always lose bets with my
brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the
perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down
the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just
after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too.
But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>FAI doesn't need to have scored
take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA
shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good
pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A></A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A></A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet4@verizon.net href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">George
W.Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=5>There you have it from THE expert
!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">J Shu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'd much rather see take-offs and
landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn
how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10
to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be
scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or
landing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A></A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A></A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=timsautopro@yahoo.com href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">Tim
Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one
turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them.
Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to
landing.</DIV>
<DIV>Tim<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><<A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</A></A>></I></B>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
George W.Kennie <<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</A></A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General
pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv380045516>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>I think that dropping the scoring
of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be
only minimally effective. There are always going to be
individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing
winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many
times they go around. I can think of individuals who would
include me in the group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>G.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow><A
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">bob@toprudder.com</A></A> ;
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02,
2009 3:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a good
argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have
aborted landings more than
once.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, March 02,
2009 10:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; WIDTH: 433.5pt"
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=578 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll
say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and
landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that
put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators.
I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches
pushed to dangerous situations when they would
probably have been aborted had they not been scored
maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk.
At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly
behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller,
and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away
from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen
a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle,
just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first
veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the
takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway.
At no point did he back off the throttle. In most
situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and
started over, but because they are being judged they
keep on pushing a bad situation.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And,
no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman
or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants
that had flown pattern for several years.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I
thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in
IMAC.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob
R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>---
On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09,
George W.Kennie <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV id=yiv297695904>I don't feel the same way as John
on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill
element. <FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></SPAN></FONT>
<P></P><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively
require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have
developed some precise degree of control over the
airframe under our command. To achieve this control
further requires intense concentration on the part of
the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne
maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by
the pilot are significantly lower than that required to
bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma
and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is
a skill that is worthy of reward in my
viewpoint.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">G.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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