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<DIV>Sounds like you guys should tap the club budget for a rake and a large box
of Hefty bags. </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings
and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Oh yeah, it's still a good idea to run from the scale
airplanes! Especially at my club field! LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu <I><<A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>></I></B>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
J Shu <<A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General pattern
discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1979162847>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'm certainly not THE expert...
I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was
a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing
down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then
the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but
scale planes!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I used to always lose bets with my
brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was
the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and
roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break
ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and
get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county
so I won the flying bets. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>FAI doesn't need to have scored
take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see
why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If
you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the
taking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=geobet4@verizon.net href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>George W.Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009
8:46 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=5>There you have it from THE expert
!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>J Shu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009
6:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'd much rather see take-offs
and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a
pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing
if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored.
Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and
make a safe take-off or landing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=timsautopro@yahoo.com
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>Tim Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02,
2009 4:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add
one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that
score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a
180 to landing.</DIV>
<DIV>Tim<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie
<I><<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>></I></B>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
George W.Kennie <<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
target=_blank
rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General
pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date:
Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv380045516>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>I think that dropping the
scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing
risk will be only minimally effective. There are
always going to be individuals who will experience
difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude,
whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can
think of individuals who would include me in the
group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>G.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message
----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=bob@toprudder.com
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>bob@toprudder.com</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
March 02, 2009 3:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a
good argument for dropping takeoff and landing
scoring. I have aborted landings more than
once.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, March
02, 2009 10:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; WIDTH: 433.5pt"
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=578 border=0>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll
say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs
and landings should be judged. These are the
maneuvers that put the plane closest to the
pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad
takeoffs and landing approaches pushed
to dangerous situations when they would
probably have been aborted had they not been scored
maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at
risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one
plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between
myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing
when the plane got away from the pilot during one
such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a
person in the pits at full throttle, just after
lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered
away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff
by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At
no point did he back off the throttle. In most
situations such as this, anyone would have aborted
and started over, but because they are being judged
they keep on pushing a bad
situation.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And,
no, niether situation involved someone in the
Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both
contestants that had flown pattern for several
years. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I
thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in
IMAC.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob
R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>---
On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09,
George W.Kennie <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><geobet4@verizon.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV id=yiv297695904>I don't feel the same way as
John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a
non-skill element. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively
require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have
developed some precise degree of control over the
airframe under our command. To achieve this control
further requires intense concentration on the part
of the pilot. I would offer that there are many
airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration
required by the pilot are significantly lower than
that required to bring the airframe back into
contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete
and confident control. This is a skill that is
worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
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face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">G.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
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<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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25177 of my spam emails to date.<BR>The Professional
version does not have this message.<BR>
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I am using the Free version of <A
href="http://www.spamfighter.com/len" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>SPAMfighter</A>.<BR>We are a community of 6 million
users fighting spam.<BR>SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam
emails to date.<BR>The Professional version does not have this
message.<BR>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><PRE>_______________________________________________
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