<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer.</div><div><br></div><div>Jerry </div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <<a href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just
going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart
said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and
not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from
weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080">I used to always lose bets with my brother
for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane
for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift
the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do
the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up
in the next county so I won the flying bets. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080">FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs
and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be
scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then
these should be freebie points for the taking. </font></div>
<div><br>Regards,<br>Jason<br><a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a></a><br><a href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><a href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a></a><br></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="geobet4@verizon.net" href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">George
W.Kennie</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings
and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="5">There you have it from THE expert
!!!!!!!!!!!!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="jshulman@cfl.rr.com" href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">J Shu</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000080">I'd much rather see take-offs and
landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to
learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot
for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored
doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>Regards,<br>Jason<br><a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a></a><br><a href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><a href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a></a><br></font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="timsautopro@yahoo.com" href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">Tim
Taylor</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br></div>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn
around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the
box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</div>
<div>Tim<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <i><<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a></a>></i></b>
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
George W.Kennie <<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a></a>><br>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<br>To: "General
pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Date: Monday, March 2,
2009, 4:44 PM<br><br>
<div id="yiv380045516">
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">I think that dropping the scoring
of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only
minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals
who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance,
ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I
can think of individuals who would include me in the
group.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">G.</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b>
<a title="jnhiller@earthlink.net" href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">J N Hiller</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="bob@toprudder.com" href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><a href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">bob@toprudder.com</a></a> ; <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">General pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02,
2009 3:13 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a good
argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have
aborted landings more than once.</span></font></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</span></font></span></p></blockquote></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></span></font></span>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><font face="Tahoma" color="black" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a></a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob
Richards<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<table style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; WIDTH: 433.5pt" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="578" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll
say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and
landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put
the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen
some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed
to dangerous situations when they would probably have
been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very
least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at
risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats
(between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing
when the plane got away from the pilot during one such
occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the
pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground,
when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot
forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the
runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most
situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and
started over, but because they are being judged they keep on
pushing a bad situation.</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And,
no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or
Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had
flown pattern for several years. </span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I
thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in
IMAC.</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob
R.</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><br><br>---
On <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09, George
W.Kennie <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net">geobet4@verizon.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
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<div id="yiv297695904">I don't feel the same way as John on
the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element.
<font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
<div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font> </p></div>
</span></font></p><font face="Arial" color="black" size="2"><p class="MsoNormal" style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require
that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some
precise degree of control over the airframe under our
command. To achieve this control further requires intense
concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that
there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of
concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower
than that required to bring the airframe back into contact
with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident
control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my
viewpoint.</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font></p></font></div><font face="Arial" color="black" size="2">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><font face="inherit" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">G.
</span></font><font face="inherit" color="black"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></span></font>
</p><div></div>
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</p><div></div>
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</p><div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div></font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></span></font><font color="black"><span style="COLOR: black"></span></font>
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