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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I love that revocation clause, Bill.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm going to file that away for future application,
If it's O.K.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=billglaze@bellsouth.net
href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:22
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Keith:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks
may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get
around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's
why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the
rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended,
it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or
so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps
impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I
doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try;
each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being
revoked without notice!<G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=khoard@gmail.com href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">Keith Hoard</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the
landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I
felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights
I have judged.<BR><BR>If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the
"smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers
everything!!!<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="white">
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are times when for one reason or another, the
field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is
the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's
what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and,
apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the
2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but
I've seen it in some official document.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I just check all
the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same
thing.<SPAN> </SPAN>LANDING AREA: the entire defined
runway.<SPAN> </SPAN>LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the
width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide.<SPAN>
</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Georgie, the
landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for
maximum points.<SPAN> </SPAN>As long as I was judging chairman
(and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should
lift off within 2 meters of center for max points).</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">There is a lot
of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and
there are many times when it may not.<SPAN> </SPAN>For instance,
grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no
wind.<SPAN> </SPAN>The intent of the rule was to allow max points
for either case. I’ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the
landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane
from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters
before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don’t worry about
running off the end.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Don</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>George W.Kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23
AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"># 2 screw-up !!!! It's not
"roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop"
is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if
the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer
that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a
downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">And if it's not a centered maneuver,
where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points,
touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the
centerline"? Is that FAI ?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Did I
make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to
keep all this stuff straight?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=jlkonn@hotmail.com href="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com"
target=_blank>John Konneker</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>Discussion List</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32
AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cut and pasted from the AMA website
this morning:<BR><B>Landing: </B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The landing maneuver will be scored in half
point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters
from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude,
dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within
the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered <B>complete once
the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes
to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that
point</B>. <BR>The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed
perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width
of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case
shall exceed 30 meters. <B>Landing is not a centered maneuver and
there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or
right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone.</B>
If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it
should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing
zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate
to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is
anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with
the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall
be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone.
<BR></SPAN><SPAN>Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA
classes.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>JLK<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR> </SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: <A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
target=_blank>geobet4@verizon.net</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Mon, 2 Mar
2009 11:15:23 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Bill,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is probably inaccurate, but I
notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove
that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In the landing descriptor it
states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within
15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP !
What does this mean to proper execution? How many times
have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the
center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the
center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150
feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful
landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would
appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like
maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach
airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling
the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I
think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter
rollout.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">If the pilot performs a
landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters
an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would
deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and
score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the
plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck
wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of
the scorer.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">And yup, I agree, It's got to be a
physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same
altitude. I think that needs correcting. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Of course, all this is my
opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so
received.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">G.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=billglaze@bellsouth.net
href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net" target=_blank>billglaze</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-
discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30
PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At the risk of starting another
downwind turn discussion:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've been reading over the
excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered
that I've had for a long time.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On landing, if the plane overturns
AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time
that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing
roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can
roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is
their idea. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the
landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some
cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called
for doing so once.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Secondly, in reading the
presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A
downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude.
Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong
before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!)<G> I've been known
to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more
knowledgeable brains on the list!</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">thanks</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill Glaze</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NSRCA 2388</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
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<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
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<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR><BR>Keith Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A><BR><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
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