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I would prefer all classes including FAI be judged on takeoffs and
landings. A smooth take off and landing are just as impressive as a
nice 4 point roll. Otherwise your fellow club members wouldn't make a
comment on a nice landing. Why? Because it is hard to do
consistently, especially with wind. For those of you who have been
flying back to the time of trike gear, a nose high takeoff or landing
showed a lot of skill. Gradually increase your speed, pull the nose
off the runway, stay rolling on the mains and then lift off
gracefully. Not easy. And who were the pilots first doing this? The
Masters pilots (top class). Now an FAI pilot gets to just blast off
(less time on grass to beat up their plane) and score a 10. The lower
classes are supposed to learn and aspire to fly as well as the guys in
the upper classes. Not with this one :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
Paul Horan wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:515082.62888.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div>I also prefer that takeoff and landings be judged, but
only in the lower classes. </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Paul<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 3/2/09, J Shu <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">From:
J Shu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:06 PM<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv801118601">
<div><font color="#000080" face="Arial">I'd much rather see
take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a
pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if
there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just
because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe
take-off or landing.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.composite-arf.com</a><br>
</font></div>
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="timsautopro@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Tim
Taylor</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel="nofollow">General pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged.
Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them.
Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</div>
<div>Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow">geobet4@verizon.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">From:
George W.Kennie <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">geobet4@verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv380045516">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="4">I think that
dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk
will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be
individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds,
turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go
around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">G.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jnhiller@earthlink.net" href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow">J N Hiller</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="bob@toprudder.com" href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bob@toprudder.com</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel="nofollow">General pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">You make a good argument
for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more
than once.</span></font></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim</span></font></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle15"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></span>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel="nofollow">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">I'll say
it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be
judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the
pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing
approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have
been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the
airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one
plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and
the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot
during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in
the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the
plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff
by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back
off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have
aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep
on pushing a bad situation.</span></font><font color="black"
face="inherit"><span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">And, no,
niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate
classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several
years. </span></font><font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">I thank
god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC.</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">JM2CW</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;">Bob R.</span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Mon, 3/2/09, George
W.Kennie <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><geobet4@verizon.net></a></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
<div
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">
<div id="yiv297695904">I don't feel the same
way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill
element. <font color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="inherit" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font> </p>
</div>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">All
aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we
demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of
control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control
further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I
would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of
concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that
required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and
demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is
worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</span></font><font color="black"
face="inherit"><span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="inherit"
size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">G. </span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</font></p>
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color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="inherit"
size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="inherit"
size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font><font
color="black" face="inherit"><span
style="color: black; font-family: inherit;"></span></font>
</font></p>
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