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I agree, Stuart. It takes the same level of skill, concentration and practice to make a good take-off or landing as to do anything else.<BR>
First flight of a new (to me) pattern airplane last week and the take off was one of my prettiest <EM>primarily because I was thinking about it.</EM> I have gotten a little sloppy since they are not scored. I used to score myself as successful when you couldn't tell when the wheels actually left or contacted the surface. Smoooth, baby... It was part of the game.<BR>
<BR>
Not that it happens all that often.<BR>
<BR>
Richard<BR> <BR>
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:14:02 -0500<BR>From: schale@optonline.net<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR><BR>I would prefer all classes including FAI be judged on takeoffs and landings. A smooth take off and landing are just as impressive as a nice 4 point roll. Otherwise your fellow club members wouldn't make a comment on a nice landing. Why? Because it is hard to do consistently, especially with wind. For those of you who have been flying back to the time of trike gear, a nose high takeoff or landing showed a lot of skill. Gradually increase your speed, pull the nose off the runway, stay rolling on the mains and then lift off gracefully. Not easy. And who were the pilots first doing this? The Masters pilots (top class). Now an FAI pilot gets to just blast off (less time on grass to beat up their plane) and score a 10. The lower classes are supposed to learn and aspire to fly as well as the guys in the upper classes. Not with this one :)<BR><BR>Stuart C.<BR><BR>Paul Horan wrote:
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<DIV>I also prefer that takeoff and landings be judged, but only in the lower classes. </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Paul<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, J Shu <I><A class=EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">From: J Shu <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:06 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" rel=nofollow>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" rel=nofollow>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=timsautopro@yahoo.com href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow>Tim Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
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<DIV>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.</DIV>
<DIV>Tim<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">From: George W.Kennie <<A href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" rel=nofollow>geobet4@verizon.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>G.</FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" rel=nofollow>bob@toprudder.com</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_EmailStyle15><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs</SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">JM2CW</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Bob R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><A class=EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"><geobet4@verizon.net></A></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<DIV id=EC_yiv297695904>I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. <FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </FONT></P>
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