I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged.<br>
<br>If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!!<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US">
<div><font size="2">Don:</font></div>
<div><font size="2">There are times when for one reason or another, the field is
unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire
runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to
doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other
folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement
mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some
official document.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Bill Glaze</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="donramsey@gmail.com" href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">Don Ramsey</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">'General pattern
discussion'</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44
AM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say
the same thing.<span> </span>LANDING AREA: the
entire defined runway.<span> </span>LANDING
ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M
wide.<span> </span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Georgie,
the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for
maximum points.<span> </span>As long as I was
judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges.<span> </span>Landing in that area could score max
points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max
points).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">There
is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing
and there are many times when it may not.<span> </span>For instance, grass runway with high
grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind.<span> </span>The intent of the rule was to allow
max points for either case. I’ve flown in some contests where if you landed in
the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane
from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before
center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don’t worry about running off the
end.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Don</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>George
W.Kennie<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> General
pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</span></p></div></div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">#
2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters",
it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If
it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters"
doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it
becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)?</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">And
if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for
maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of
the centerline"? Is that FAI ?</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Did
I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep
all this stuff straight?</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">-----
Original Message ----- </span></p></div>
<div>
<p style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a title="jlkonn@hotmail.com" href="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com" target="_blank">John
Konneker</a> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">Discussion List</a>
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Cut
and pasted from the AMA website this morning:<br><b>Landing:
</b></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">The
landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The
maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares
smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then
smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be
considered <b>complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and
rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be
applied after that point</b>. <br>The landing zone shall be marked by
lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The
width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case
shall exceed 30 meters. <b>Landing is not a centered maneuver and there
is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from
center as long as the landing is in the landing zone.</b> If the
touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be
downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The
Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if
safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than
standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before
flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in
the non-standard landing zone. <br></span><span>Emphasis added by
me. This of course for AMA classes.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>JLK<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br> </span></p>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:
<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" target="_blank">geobet4@verizon.net</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Date: Mon, 2
Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Bill,</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">This
is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your
inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes.
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">In
the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model
rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is
STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How
many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of
the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center
of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A
little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of
the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a
downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's
responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown
occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe
somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like
flipovers after the 15 meter rollout.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">If
the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and
then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or
whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's
control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either
the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck
wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the
scorer.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">And
yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a
Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs
correcting. </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Of
course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be
so received.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">G.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">-----
Original Message ----- </span></p></div>
<div>
<p style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a title="billglaze@bellsouth.net" href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net" target="_blank">billglaze</a>
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca- discussion</a>
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">At
the risk of starting another downwind turn
discussion:</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I've
been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a
question answered that I've had for a long
time.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">On
landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero?
I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me
"after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the
airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect
the score, is their idea. </span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Also,
if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into
what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed?
I've been called for doing so once.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Secondly,
in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split
S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same
altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been
wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!)<G> I've been known
to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more
knowledgeable brains on the list!</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">thanks</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Bill
Glaze</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">NSRCA
2388</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p></div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I
am using the Free version of <a href="http://www.spamfighter.com/len" target="_blank">SPAMfighter</a>.<br>We are a community
of 6 million users fighting spam.<br>SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my
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<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
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<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I
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list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote>
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