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<DIV><FONT size=2>Keith:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks
may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get
around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's
why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules.
(Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in
theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to
me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely
tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's
possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a
little closer to the absolute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being
revoked without notice!<G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=khoard@gmail.com href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">Keith Hoard</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the
landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt
the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have
judged.<BR><BR>If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth
and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers
everything!!!<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net">billglaze@bellsouth.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are times when for one reason or another, the field
is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the
entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what
leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and,
apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2
meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've
seen it in some official document.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I just check all
the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same
thing.<SPAN> </SPAN>LANDING AREA: the entire defined
runway.<SPAN> </SPAN>LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the
width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide.<SPAN>
</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Georgie, the
landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for
maximum points.<SPAN> </SPAN>As long as I was judging chairman (and
before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should
lift off within 2 meters of center for max points).</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">There is a lot of
times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there
are many times when it may not.<SPAN> </SPAN>For instance, grass
runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind.<SPAN>
</SPAN>The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case.
I’ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for
max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the
end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10
meters and be finished, then don’t worry about running off the
end.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Don</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>George W.Kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23
AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"># 2 screw-up !!!! It's not
"roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is
still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the
model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if
the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a
downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">And if it's not a centered maneuver,
where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points,
touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"?
Is that FAI ?</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the
heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=jlkonn@hotmail.com href="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com"
target=_blank>John Konneker</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>Discussion
List</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32
AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cut and pasted from the AMA website
this morning:<BR><B>Landing: </B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The landing maneuver will be scored in half
point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters
from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude,
dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within
the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered <B>complete once the
plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a
stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point</B>.
<BR>The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular
across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing
zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30
meters. <B>Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade
for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as
long as the landing is in the landing zone.</B> If the touchdown is
within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded
proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest
Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if
safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other
than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and
judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to
the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone.
<BR></SPAN><SPAN>Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA
classes.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>JLK<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR> </SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: <A
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
target=_blank>geobet4@verizon.net</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Mon, 2 Mar
2009 11:15:23 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Bill,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is probably inaccurate, but I
notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove
that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In the landing descriptor it states,
" there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15
meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What
does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you
seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line
and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the
runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A
little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light
of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this
becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the
pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that
touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout
distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would
also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">If the pilot performs a
landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an
obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem
the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score
a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane
being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel
e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the
scorer.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">And yup, I agree, It's got to be a
physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same
altitude. I think that needs correcting. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Of course, all this is my opinionated
interpretation of matters and should be so received.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">G.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=billglaze@bellsouth.net href="mailto:billglaze@bellsouth.net"
target=_blank>billglaze</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-
discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30
PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Questions</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At the risk of starting another
downwind turn discussion:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've been reading over the excellent
PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've
had for a long time.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On landing, if the plane overturns AT
ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that
it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll,
we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll
anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their
idea. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the
landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some
cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called
for doing so once.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Secondly, in reading the presentation
for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the
entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be
an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes,
it's happened!)<G> I've been known to incorrectly
read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable
brains on the list!</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">thanks</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill Glaze</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NSRCA 2388</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
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<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am using the Free version of <A
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<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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mailing list<BR><A
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target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR><BR>Keith Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A><BR><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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