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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim, I was
under the impression that reducing travel using duel rates reduced the
resolution unnecessarily. I never did really understand if the pulses were
clipped or compressed with rate changes. Help!<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>James Oddino<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 21, 2009
9:18 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Random tip on ATV and setup</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hi Don,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>You lost me
with this one and I must confess I didn't study the previous posts. I did
question your basic premise that using Subtrim was a bad thing. I agree
it is bad if it is being used to make up for a bad linkage setup but it is okay
to use it as long as the servos are going through identical angles and the
servo speeds are the same. ( The servo speed, measured in degrees per
second, is not a function of the transmitted signal.)</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The way to
approach twin elevator servos, is to match the servos prior to installing them
in the airplane by installing the control horns as close as possible to their
neutral positions with the stick, trims, and subtrims at zero and then touch up
the neutrals with the subtrims. You need a large protractor and pointer
on the servo to do this. Then set the end points to the same maximum throws, to
more than you would ever want. Then touch up the neutral with the subtrim
again and the endpoints again until they track exactly. <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>Then never touch the Subtrims and ATV again. </span></b> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Use the AFR
or Dual rates to set your desired throws in the plane and do any neutral
trimming with the normal trim. These functions affect both channels
equally if you are set up right. Never use ATV or independent channel
subtrims or end point adjustments to set the throw in the airplane.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hope this
helps. I know it will force you to make perfect linkage setups if you
want the elevators to track.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards, Jim
O</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Feb 21,
2009, at 8:00 AM, <a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br
style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Bob,<br>
<br>
Good article. If the right elevator ATV is set up at lets say 120
percent (down elevator) then the other side is set at like 90 percent (up
elevator)- what would the speed be to go down more than the speed to go
up. This is with respect to the left elevator, assuming its set at
100 percent up and down. Since its less steps, and same step speed
(1.17us per step) times 1024 equals 1.2 milliseconds times 60 degrees
if throw is like .024 seconds, but with a servo speed of .2 seconds per 60
degrees times 2 (120 degrees throw total up and down) puts it at about 2
percent difference (of .4 seconds). Maybe I should have gotten up
early and gone with Chris to the WRAM...<br>
<br>
Bottom line his program setup was straight out of the mad
kitchen chef show. When I asked him why he originally did not take
the time to set it up mechanically, I just got kind of a blank stare-
like if the radio CAN do that, then what's the problem. When
we set everything to normal, zero sub trim, and mechanically adjusted the
servos and control arms- everything worked fine. Now this is an extreme
example but I got to thinking that if you minimize these electronic
setup things it will help with precision. I try
to use little or no subtrim, but do use ATV in the amounts up to
5 or 7 percent to get the end point throws just right. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Don<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bob Richards <<a href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">bob@toprudder.com</a>><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 8:55 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Random tip on ATV and setup</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=530 style='width:397.5pt;
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<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_3ce11627-880d-4a3b-9ee4-845fd00a8b11">Don,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>If I am understanding this correctly,
the servos are actually moving the same speed (degrees/second). However,
because of the mechanical setup differences, the two servos were having to
travel different amounts to get the two elevator halves to move the same
amount. Regardless, you are correct that a problem in the linkage
geometry should never be corrected using radio settings.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The step size of the 1024 Futaba
radio is fixed, at 1.17us. I discovered this when I wrote about the Futaba
radios in the Kfactor back in Jan '95.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://www.toprudder.com/hobbies/fut7uap.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.toprudder.com/hobbies/fut7uap.pdf</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Bob R.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Thu, 2/19/09, <a
href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a> <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: <a
href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a> <<a
href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Random tip on ATV and setup<br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 10:32 PM</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>
<div id=yiv1984632909>Sub trim is a function that moves the servo to get the
control surface centered. This in conjunction with end point adjustments
can have an adverse effect on servo speeds. You are basically stretching the
number of steps for the same amount of travel, among the servos. I was at the
FARM club helping out a giant scale newbe last fall and he was flying a third
scale H9 Extra 330 with <a
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6405"
target="_blank"
title="Special deals on Futaba products, Free shipping worldwide! Please visit www.EPRacing.com"
rel=nofollow><font color=black><span style='color:black;text-decoration:none;
text-underline:none'>Futaba</span></font></a> 8 channel and Hitec servos. One
of his servos literally trailed the other one by about 20 or so degrees when
moving the elevators up and down in a rapid fashion. He said a servo was bad.
Actually, backing up a bit- when he was flying he asked my help to trim his
plane and handed me the transmitter . When I tried some waterfalls, it peeled
off really bad. When I landed, that is when I saw the elevators moving at
different speeds. Upon inspection I found he used the electronic sub trim to
get the servos aligned and massive atv end point to get the ends the same
throw. He also had the ATVs set at nealy 150 percent. I think he was like,
off one complete servo arm tooth and used the sub trim to get the servo back
to center. After about 2 hours getting everything mechanically adjusted, the
plane flew so much better. It went from something nearly crashing to a
competitive <a
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=3854"
target="_blank"
title="Setup your aircraft for IMAC competition using your laptop PC and AeroPerfect's MEMS technology!"
rel=nofollow><font color=black><span style='color:black;text-decoration:none;
text-underline:none'>IMAC</span></font></a> and 3D setup. Any case, I had an
identical experience when helping a flyer in Vanceboro, NC last year (after
the pattern contest completed). Exact same issue on his (scal e) plane. He
thought the Rx was bad until I showed him what the deal was. After
mechanically adjusting to get it close, all was well. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=MAILCIADA038-5bc5499e082f260>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
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size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
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mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
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