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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank you
Jack,<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maybe
flying unknowns should be added to the rules proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Many here
could speak to this better than I, but here goes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Flying unknowns
at large contests having a significant number of well-practiced contestants with
similar ability would be a good separator. When I was flying IMAC before the
big airplanes took over the more experienced pilots were able to cope with
unknowns a lot easier and familiarity with the maneuvers selected was an asset,
especially if they were flown in previous schedules. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle16><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>jtkeiser@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 04, 2009
7:39 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Been reading all these
posts about Mandatory Advancement and thought I'd add my 2 cents.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I'm probably one of the
few on this list that fly acro competition (althogh not very well) in all 3
venues - AMA Pattern, IMAC and IAC. I'm fairly new to IMAC, but I've been at
the others quite a while.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In IAC, there is no MA;
you fly whatever class you want. Obviously, the overriding concern there is
safety. For many, the 'destination class' is ADV or INT, some even Sportsman.
This depends either pilot or aircraft limitations. Some people just don't like
the hard neg G stuff, and although capable, choose not to fly ADV or Unlimited.
Or, if you fly a Decathalon, you're pretty much limited to Sportsman by the
plane's capabilities - any higher would be like flying a Telemaster in Masters.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Do you encounter the
dreaded "Sandbagger" ? Rarely. If so, are they a deterent
to participation in that class? Not that I've ever seen. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I believe one thing that
tends to equalize things, enen when you have a "Sandbagger", is the
variety of sequences you fly. In each contest, you fly a Known, Freestyle and
an Unknown. The Known is like our published AMA sequence; the Freestyle you
create, according to a defined criteria, to best suit you and your plane's
capabilities. The Unknown is the "Equalizer". No matter how many
times you've flown the Known, or how many years you've been in that class, the
Unknown is just as new to the old timer as the guy who's flying the class for
the first time. Many contests, I'd guess more than half, are determined by the
last flight of the contest -the Unknown. It certainly adds to the interest and
keeps everyone focused to the very end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>IMAC uses the Unknown in
all classes except Sportsman, although they can, and occasionally do use it
there too. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I believe adding an
Unknown in Pattern (perhaps excepting Sportsman) would be welcomed by most all
participants, and it'd add some variety to what is seen by many as boring
routines. Might even attract a few IMAC guys, who generally consider Pattern
passe'.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In the early 1980's, we
even had a Feestyle in Masters. I always looked forward to that, but
didn't reach Masters until too late. Don't remember when it was dropped, but I
always felt it took something away from the class.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>There does seem to be a
lot of discontent about MA, and we're constantly lamenting the decline in
membership and participation, so why not try something new? Add an Unknown and
eliminate MA - little downside and maybe some new interest.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jack<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot@wowway.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 7:04:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment<br>
<br>
I think the only time mandatory advancement makes sense is for<br>
sportsman. If new pilots are getting beat bad by pilots that should be<br>
in intermediate or advanced then it deters pilots from getting into<br>
pattern and staying in pattern. <br>
<br>
Maybe we could use the NATS as a gauge for advancement. If you finish<br>
in the top five in intermediate or advanced in the NATs then you have to<br>
move up. I really don't think there are that many people sand bagging<br>
to win a local contest or a district championship. I do believe some<br>
stay in intermediate or advanced an additional year or two to try and<br>
win in all at the NATS. I'm certain there have been intermediate pilots<br>
that won the NATS that easily could have finished in the top half in<br>
Advanced at the NATS.<br>
<br>
I also think adding another class doesn't make sense. I watched Dave<br>
Johnstone and Dennis Bodary fly masters for the first time this year.<br>
Dave and Dennis even flew some FAI. Both showed a lot of improvement<br>
from the beginning of the year to the end. Both may never make the<br>
finals in masters but I don't think either one regrets moving up. Both<br>
would also be hard pressed to finish near the top in Advanced at the<br>
NATS.<br>
<br>
My 2 cents.<br>
<br>
Ron Hansen<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N<br>
Hiller<br>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:13 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment<br>
<br>
I tend to agree that guidelines would be great. Before normalized<br>
scoring we<br>
say total scores for other contests including the NATS. This gave me a<br>
real<br>
good understanding of how I compared to others and what kind of spread<br>
there<br>
was between the top placing fliers. Published normalized scores hides or<br>
masks the performance indicator (total K). At the time there was real<br>
value<br>
in reading contest results from all districts, beyond seeing people<br>
mentioned that I knew or met somewhere.<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Mark<br>
Atwood<br>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:55 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion; Tom Simes<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment<br>
<br>
Just one of the MANY scenarios that supports just having a guideline<br>
approach. I like the data that PACSS will have, but again, let's use it<br>
to<br>
advise people where they best fit, not force them.<br>
<br>
I don't know of many trophy hounds that are so UN competitive that they<br>
would fly beneath themselves just for a plaque. I'm sure they<br>
exist...but<br>
I'm also sure they have other more serious problems in life than me<br>
worrying<br>
about making them "move up". lol<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/2/09 3:43 PM, "Tom Simes" <simestd@netexpress.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Mark Atwood wrote:<br>
>> I¹m coming in very late to this discussion, but regardless of the<br>
system,<br>
I<br>
>> really think the primary change needs to be that instead of ANY<br>
mandatory<br>
>> system, we change the key word to be ³Guideline²...meaning it¹s a<br>
guideline<br>
>> for when to move, but not a fast rule. This is pattern...a
hobby.<br>
Yes,<br>
a<br>
>> competitive one, but there¹s no huge money riding on it (certainly<br>
not at<br>
>> the levels that are subjected to this) and there will always be valid<br>
>> exceptions that no system can take into account. So while we can
and<br>
should<br>
>> work on improving the advancement system to be as accurate as<br>
possible, I<br>
>> will likely submit a proposal that simply changes the existing system<br>
to<br>
be<br>
>> a guideline, rather than mandatory.<br>
>><br>
>> I personally think that fixes almost everything. (well...with regard<br>
to<br>
>> pattern advancement). :)<br>
>><br>
>> -Mark<br>
><br>
> In PACSS, Gene already has the underpinnings built and working for<br>
> national results reporting. I'm not advocating one way or another,<br>
> just throwing out a data point that one of the hardest parts to<br>
> coordinate is already in place.<br>
><br>
> With regard to mandatory advancement, one aspect that I think deserves<br>
> careful attention is how to handle people getting back into pattern<br>
> after an absence or people who have reached a point in their lives<br>
> where their skills are in decline for one reason or another.<br>
><br>
> It's sad to see a competitor who progressed into the higher ranks<br>
> years ago and feels obligated to stay there but whose skills are<br>
> obviously not adequate for the class anymore. If mandatory<br>
> advancement is being considered, there should also be a mechanism to<br>
> move downward as well - instead of just leaving the hobby.<br>
<br>
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