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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What the heck is a litre? :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 02, 2009 5:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory
Advancment</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Guys, Hi John...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Sorry-been lurking for a while now. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Yes John is correct about our system and I must say it
kind of works ok. Nothing is ever perfect, but it does work. Maybe you guys
can learn something from us?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>On another note, I've been a NSRCA member now since '95 (
I think?) and Oh dear...I must renew...Sorry Jim! I have very few reasons
actually to be a NSRCA member!!! What can the NSRCA do for me????? All I
can get is that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I am part of the
pattern community-is that enough?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>On top of that, now that the dues have increased, the
exchange rate is killing me!!! Let me ask this-how many of you would pay $100
for the K-factor alone?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Well, I will-and I get no benefit at all from your
organisation. Or do I?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In all truth, I actually think I get great value! I have
made some great friends over the years and how does one put a monetary value
on that? So ( Jim in particular) I will renew asap...but I just might watch
the exchange rates for a day or two and try and pick a good
time!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Oh-and I will write and contribute to the K-factor-I just
need to line up a few more ducks first.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Fuels: Guys down here most of us mix our own using the
Coolpower oil. We source Nitro from VP ( or other brands) and buy methanol
anywhere we can, as long as its pure. To buy pre mix is disgustingly
expensive. I think a gallon of CP30 Heli will be close to $85. Just plain
madness in my opinion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Electrics will flourish eventually-simply from an
economic point of view. You guys in the US do not always appreciate just how
lucky you are!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Gasoline ( we call it Petrol :-) right now seems to be
around $1.20- $1.30 per litre. Just a little trivia for you all.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Gayer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 3 February 2009 2:07 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory
Advancment<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>When this subject came up lst year I suggested looking
into the advancement system the Australian Pattern Association uses to address
the issues you are bringing up. Their system is maintained by the APA which
maintains the status of each pilot attending any sanctioned contests. In
Australia you earn advancement to the next class by beating a national
standard (raw score) three times in a running 12month period. They have 4
classes (FAI,Expert, Advanced and Sportsman). Since the APA is keeping track
of all competitor's advancement status, there is no honor system or
bookkeeping issues for the competitor. Since advancement is based on national
scoring averages of the FAI(Masters) community, the quality of the local
competition in the individual classes is removed(mostly) from the class
advancement criteria. Also, advancement of the top flyer in a class
locally has no impact on the advancement of the remaining competitors in that
class.<BR>I flew under this system for a couple of years and it works quite
well. The biggest problem, as always, was fair and honest judging.
Typically, classes were judged by competitors in the next higher class and
there was a tendency to keep lower class competitors down on the farm.<BR>More
more information on the Australian advancement system, go to <A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au">http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au</A>
and drill down to rules and then MAAA Rules, scroll down to R/C Aerobatics
Grading System to get a complete description.<BR><BR>John<BR> <BR><BR>J N
Hiller wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:HDEBJEADHEDJKKHHCEKPEEBBEFAA.jnhiller@earthlink.net
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes John the NSRCA
rules change survey is for ALL who are interested in pattern (RC
Aerobatics). We can't emphasize this enough. For those who haven't been
around longer than dirt, the objective of the NSRCA is to gain some
consensuses within the pattern community regarding rule change proposals.
This process reduced the total number of proposals the AMA change process
needed to deal with, many of which were in conflict or adversely affecting
each other, greatly complicating the re-right between the first and second
AMA votes. At least I think that is how it was. It's been a while! In any
case individuals can still make change proposals directly to AMA. To my
knowledge AMA rules are not controlled or dictated by any special interest
group.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While out for a
walk this afternoon I had a couple more thoughts that I wish to share. First
the story of how I got to masters should have included how the remaining
advanced fliers would be affected by my absence. They will likely be trading
first place advancement points, which will accumulating faster, epically if
a single individual dominates. Without gaining significant proficiency
someone could find himself or herself forced into masters much less prepared
than I, which can be difficult at best. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When I spoke of
using the raw score as a personal benchmark I was actually using the judge
awarded average not the total K factor average. I found a couple contest
records both of which had 10-point takeoff and landing, which contributed
excessively to my performance average. The K-average was 1 to 2 % lower due
to lower scores in higher K maneuvers. The value to be used needs to be the
K value average.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The other thing we
should consider is revising / simplifying the rule used to allow a return to
a lower class. Nobody enjoys being in last place all the time. A performance
average used for advancement effectively identifies the upper performance
limit within a class and an equally valid argument could be made to use a
minimum value, below maybe 50%, to allow return to the next lower class. Of
course this of course would not be
mandatory.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The thought also
occurred to me that some incomplete flights due to a double fowl line
violation should be included in the contest performance average as well. We
don't see this very often but it justifiably pulls down the competitor's
performance average.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you have read
this far you are interested. Don't worry about offending me. Post your
thoughts.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
<SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Konneker<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:36
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Jim,<BR>Thank
you for the thoughtful reply and your interest in the survey.<BR>As someone
once told me, you can't have change without dissatisfaction.<BR>The subject
of class advancement comes up often enough that one has<BR>to believe a lot
of folks feel there is a better way.<BR>You bring up some excellent
alternatives that need to be discussed.<BR>I know this discussion will
lead to one or more survey proposals.<BR>I hope to have the survey ready to
publish on the website, in the K-Factor and <BR>Model Aviation and on the
various forums by late summer. So we have time<BR>to formulate
your ideas.<BR>By the way, the survey will be open to ALL those interested
in pattern.<BR>NOT just NSRCA members.<BR>Once again thanks
Jim!<BR>JLK<BR><BR>> From: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A><BR>> To:
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:37:25 -0800<BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment<BR>> <BR>> John, I would be happy to get involved
with this.<BR>> <BR>> I believe flight score averages derived from
complete flights are good<BR>> indicators of ability. Advancement could
be based on multiple contest<BR>> average (maybe 6???), enough to
demonstrate consistency. 70%? 75%? 80%? 85%?<BR>> could be used as an
advancement indicator rather it be mandatory or simply a<BR>>
recommendation. Not having raw scores information it would be difficult
for<BR>> me to suggest a hard number. Probably needs to be included in a
proposal!<BR>> Last season's contest raw scores would be a good indicator
of an appropriate<BR>> value.<BR>> <BR>> Here is my story:<BR>>
I'm being pushed into masters where it's not likely that I will ever be
very<BR>> competitive, but that's OK. I reached my personal plateau of
about 80%<BR>> flying advanced in 2007. Through much of 2008 during
practice I was just<BR>> standing in the flight box going through the
motions, talking to who ever<BR>> was standing there. I expect I will be
hard pressed to break 70% in masters.<BR>> My feeling is advancement
percentage needs to increase with the class<BR>> progression as the skill
development or learning curve tends to level out.<BR>> Not that the
maneuvers are more difficult relative to our acquired ability<BR>> but
the sequences become much less forgiving of even simple errors.<BR>>
<BR>> For something like this to work the AMA would need to maintain
accessible<BR>> records that are consistently updated by CD's. How many
pattern contests are<BR>> sanctioned? Does AMA still require CD to send
contest results to AMA? How<BR>> many CD's actually do? We started to
touch on this issue in the 'national<BR>> database' discussion last year.
How can it be done? Who is going to do it?<BR>> Who needs to be involved
to make this happen? Are they interested? Are we<BR>> (pattern fliers)
interested?<BR>> <BR>> Change is never without obstacles. Lets discuss
this and other ideas and add<BR>> it to the rules proposal survey. Lets
try not to get overwhelmed with<BR>> unreasonable high tech automated
data management systems. We only need one<BR>> additional number included
with contest results and a new advancement<BR>> 'points' card
format.<BR>> <BR>> It's past time to try something different. John,
how much time do we have?<BR>> <BR>> Jim Hiller<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of John Konneker<BR>> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:17
AM<BR>> To: Discussion List; <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d_bodary@yahoo.com">d_bodary@yahoo.com</A><BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Classes & Growth<BR>> <BR>>
hmmm...<BR>> Jim H.,<BR>> That looks like a good rules proposal in the
making!<BR>> I'd be happy to include it in the survey.<BR>>
;-)<BR>> JLK<BR>> <BR><!--[if
!supportLineBreakNewLine]--><BR><!--[endif]--></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN
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