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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Or fly
unknowns. Compose them during Miller Time the evening before.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Hoard<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 03, 2009
11:28 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancement</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We could just roll a dice at the pilot's
meeting. Whatever you roll is the class you fly. . .</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Tue, Feb
3, 2009 at 1:12 PM, J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
40.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>
<div link="blue" vlink="blue">Eventually we may need to fly against our own
ever increasing average Beater your past performance, if you can. The winner
could be the contestant with the highest increase in a running average.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
40.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
40.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>brian young<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 03, 2009
10:44 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancement</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I just
keep thinking....we need more people in the lower classes to push up. We need
to fill the lower classes at least around where Im flying, otherwise it will be
an all masters contest....how do you judge that?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Either
that or get the masters guys to get into F3A.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
76.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:76.8pt;text-align:center;
border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:76.8pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> Joe Lachowski <<a
href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com" target="_blank">jlachow@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Discussion List <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 3, 2009
7:34:17 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancement<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><br>
It may be only me, but I don't buy this not ready for Masters mentality. In
time practice usually fixes things along with taking ones lumps for
at least a season no matter how much it hurts. I did this years ago when we
were transitioning to turnaround. I saw the writing on the wall at that time
and jumped from the old AMA style Sportsman right to the new Expert turnaround
the following year. I took a beating and never finished better than fifth on
the local circuit which was in some cases last. The following year things began
to click and I placed in the top 3 a couple of times. Frankly, if you are an
advanced pilot now and think you may have to move up the next season, you
should be experimenting with some of the Masters maneuvers anyway. It can only
make you a better pilot<br>
<br>
Jon you should be happy that you actually have a Nats trophy. I have never had
the opportunity and will probably never make it to the finals in Masters
because of the log jam up top. Yep, the Advanced sequence might be a little
simplified, but you know what, most Advanced pilots still can't fly
it any better than the previous sequence.<br>
<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:52:44 -0500<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com" target="_blank">jonlowe@aol.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancement<br>
> <br>
> Now he's talking about me!!<br>
> <br>
> Seriously, I only flew reasonably well at the NATS (5th) and one other <br>
> contest this year in advanced when Gary Courtney was well off his game. <br>
> I had my butt handed to me everywhere else. However, I was close to <br>
> pointing out in 2007 due to minimal competition at many contests, and <br>
> did point out this year. However, as the results at the the Tangerine <br>
> this year show, I am not ready for Masters ( I did beat Van Putte!). <br>
> Part of it is the Masters sequence. Half of it is inverted, and I <br>
> never encountered inverted entrances and exits as I moved up in ANY <br>
> sequence. The current advanced sequence was simplified a couple of <br>
> years ago, and it was overdone. However, I think I would go mad if I <br>
> was to do another year of advanced. The sequence needs to be shaken up <br>
> every couple of years, just to keep it interesting to those who aren't <br>
> going to move up anytime soon.<br>
> <br>
> I think the Australian method is interesting. Perhaps we could adapt <br>
> at least part of it to our needs.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Jon Lowe<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: J Shu <<a href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" target="_blank">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>><br>
> To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 3:49 pm<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancement<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I can move back to advanced... never flew a Masters flight outside of <br>
> practice...lol. But don't worry, the only way I'd move back<br>
> is<br>
> if Blake gets to big of a head <G>. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I don't think the points advancement should be removed, just some new <br>
> 'rules' applied to it. I don't want to see a sandbagger stay<br>
> in a class that they clearly don't belong in. But I'd also like to see <br>
> a way for pilots that like to go to many contests stay in a<br>
> class if they still aren't ready for instead of pointing out cause <br>
> they're a die-hard competitor. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Regards, <br>
> <br>
> Jason <br>
> <br>
> <a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target="_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> <a href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target="_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Dave Burton" <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
target="_blank">burtona@atmc.net</a>> <br>
> <br>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br>
> <br>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:41 PM <br>
> <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancement <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I agree with Mark on this. There is no reason to have a <br>
> points/advancement <br>
> <br>
> system that's not even administered and serves no purpose except to <br>
> force <br>
> <br>
> flyers to move beyond their ability in too many cases. Eliminate it
all <br>
> <br>
> together! <br>
> <br>
> Dave Burton <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> <br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> <br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark
<br>
> Atwood <br>
> <br>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:28 PM <br>
> <br>
> To: General pattern discussion <br>
> <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancement <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Does he need one?? I thought20he moved directly from Adv to FAI? I <br>
> would <br>
> <br>
> think he could go back to Adv.... <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> But that's my whole point. The only classes where some type of <br>
> mandatory <br>
> <br>
> move makes sense is the only place where we don't have one. AND IT <br>
> WORKS <br>
> <br>
> FINE. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Let's let people fly where THEY feel comfortable and competitive. If I <br>
> lose <br>
> <br>
> a contest to a "Sandbagger" than A) I still suck and can get
better, <br>
> and B) <br>
> <br>
> they need to get a life and realize that it's a hobby. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> How often does this really happen?? <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I think a simple guideline that helps advise people on where they <br>
> should be <br>
> <br>
> is the better approach. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 2/2/09 4:12 PM, "Tony Stillman" <<a
href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com" target="_blank">tony@radiosouthrc.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > Just contact your AMA VP. I have granted 3 or 4 such moves down over <br>
> the <br>
> <br>
> > last 3 years. <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > Sorry Jason, you WON'T be granted one.... LOL... <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > Tony Stillman, President <br>
> <br>
> > Radio South, Inc. <br>
> <br>
> > 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 <br>
> <br>
> > Brunswick, GA 31525 <br>
> <br>
> > 1-800-962-7802 <br>
> <br>
> > <a href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">www.radiosouthrc.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > -----Original Message----- <br>
> <br>
> > From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> <br>
> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of J
Shu <br>
> <br>
> > Sent: Monday, February 02,=2<br>
> 02009 4:05 PM <br>
> <br>
> > To: General pattern discussion <br>
> <br>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > Why not have pilots that wish to move back a class submit a request <br>
> to <br>
> <br>
> > (who?) and then that person contact some pilots in the area <br>
> <br>
> > to find out the scoop if it should be allowed or not. <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > I would allow myself to move back to Advanced... I really should... <br>
> oops, <br>
> <br>
> I <br>
> <br>
> > can...hehehehe. <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > Regards, <br>
> <br>
> > Jason <br>
> <br>
> > <a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com" target="_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> > <a href="http://www.composite-arf.com" target="_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> <br>
> > From: "Mark Atwood" <<a
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>> <br>
> <br>
> > To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>;
<br>
> "Tom <br>
> <br>
> > Simes" <<a href="mailto:simestd@netexpress.com"
target="_blank">simestd@netexpress.com</a>> <br>
> <br>
> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:55 PM <br>
> <br>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > Just one of the MANY scenarios that supports just having a
guideline <br>
> <br>
> > approach. I like the data that PACSS will have, but again, let's use <br>
> it <br>
> <br>
> to <br>
> <br>
> > advise people where they best fit, not force them. <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > I don't know of many trophy hounds that are so UN competitive that <br>
> they <br>
> <br>
> > would fly beneath themselves just for a plaque. I'm sure they <br>
> exist...but <br>
> <br>
> > I'm also sure they have ot<br>
> her more serious problems in life than me <br>
> <br>
> worrying <br>
> <br>
> > about making them "move up". lol <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> > On 2/2/09 3:43 PM, "Tom Simes" <<a
href="mailto:simestd@netexpress.com" target="_blank">simestd@netexpress.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> >> Mark Atwood wrote: <br>
> <br>
> >>> I¹m coming in very late to this discussion, but regardless of
the <br>
> <br>
> system, <br>
> <br>
> > I <br>
> <br>
> >>> really think the primary change needs to be that instead of
ANY <br>
> <br>
> mandatory <br>
> <br>
> >>> system, we change the key word to be ³Guideline²...meaning
it¹s a <br>
> <br>
> > guideline <br>
> <br>
> >>> for when to move, but not a fast rule. This is pattern...a
hobby. <br>
> Yes, <br>
> <br>
> > a <br>
> <br>
> >>> competitive one, but there¹s no huge money riding on it
(certainly <br>
> not <br>
> <br>
> at <br>
> <br>
> >>> the levels that are subjected to this) and there will always
be <br>
> valid <br>
> <br>
> >>> exceptions that no system can take into account. So while we
can <br>
> and <br>
> <br>
> > should <br>
> <br>
> >>> work on improving the advancement system to be as accurate as
<br>
> possible, <br>
> <br>
> I <br>
> <br>
> >>> will likely submit a proposal that simply changes the
existing <br>
> system to <br>
> <br>
> > be <br>
> <br>
> >>> a guideline, rather than mandatory. <br>
> <br>
> >>> <br>
> <br>
> >>> I personally think that fixes almost everything. (well...with
<br>
> regard to <br>
> <br>
> >>> pattern advancement). :) <br>
> <br>
> >>> <br>
> <br>
> >>> -Mark <br>
> <br>
> >> <br>
> <br>
> >> In PACSS, Gene alr<br>
> eady has the underpinnings built and working for <br>
> <br>
> >> national results reporting. I'm not advocating one way or
another, <br>
> <br>
> >> just throwing out a data point that one of the hardest parts
to <br>
> <br>
> >> coordinate is already in place. <br>
> <br>
> >> <br>
> <br>
> >> With regard to mandatory advancement, one aspect that I think <br>
> deserves <br>
> <br>
> >> careful attention is how to handle people getting back into
pattern <br>
> <br>
> >> after an absence or people who have reached a point in their
lives <br>
> <br>
> >> where their skills are in decline for one reason or
another. <br>
> <br>
> >> <br>
> <br>
> >> It's sad to see a competitor who progressed into the higher
ranks <br>
> <br>
> >> years ago and feels obligated to stay there but whose skills
are <br>
> <br>
> >> obviously not adequate for the class anymore. If mandatory <br>
> <br>
> >> advancement is being considered, there should also be a mechanism
to <br>
> <br>
> >> move downward as well - instead of just leaving the hobby. <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
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