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Administration wold have to be deferred to NSRCA. AMA would never take
this on. That is what happened in Australia as well(the APA is the
equivalent of the NSRCA, MAAA is the equivalent of the AMA). But
clearly volunteers would be needed to work the database issues and
there would have to be repercussions to not sending in contest results.<br>
Last year I ran out of time to deal with the database. I believe Robert
Beaubien indicated an interest in helping with a database as well.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle23"><font color="#993366"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I remember the
discussion, thanks for reminding me of the Australian
system. Before it could be considered we would need the national
database which
sidetracked the discussion to change the advancement rule last year. I
considered just submitting a change proposal but time was short and I
just
walked away from it. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle23"><font color="#993366"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Pattern being an open
rulebook event I suspect AMA would need to administrate
class advancement regardless of how it is done. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle23"><font color="#993366"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle23"><font color="#993366"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle23"><font color="#993366"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>John Gayer<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, February
02, 2009
7:07 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jim,<br>
<br>
When this subject came up lst year I suggested looking into the
advancement
system the Australian Pattern Association uses to address the issues
you are
bringing up. Their system is maintained by the APA which maintains the
status
of each pilot attending any sanctioned contests. In Australia you earn
advancement to the next class by beating a national standard (raw
score)
three times in a running 12month period. They have 4 classes
(FAI,Expert,
Advanced and Sportsman). Since the APA is keeping track of all
competitor's
advancement status, there is no honor system or bookkeeping issues for
the
competitor. Since advancement is based on national scoring averages of
the
FAI(Masters) community, the quality of the local competition in the
individual
classes is removed(mostly) from the class advancement criteria. Also,
advancement of the top flyer in a class locally has no impact on the
advancement of the remaining competitors in that class.<br>
I flew under this system for a couple of years and it works quite well.
The
biggest problem, as always, was fair and honest judging. Typically,
classes were judged by competitors in the next higher class and there
was a
tendency to keep lower class competitors down on the farm.<br>
More more information on the Australian advancement system, go to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au">http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au</a>
and drill down to rules and then MAAA Rules, scroll down to R/C
Aerobatics
Grading System to get a complete description.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
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</xml><![endif]-->Yes
John the NSRCA rules change survey is for ALL who are
interested in pattern (RC Aerobatics). We can't emphasize this enough.
For
those who haven't been around longer than dirt, the objective of the
NSRCA is
to gain some consensuses within the pattern community regarding rule
change
proposals. This process reduced the total number of proposals the AMA
change
process needed to deal with, many of which were in conflict or
adversely
affecting each other, greatly complicating the re-right between the
first and
second AMA votes. At least I think that is how it was. It's been a
while! In
any case individuals can still make change proposals directly to AMA.
To my
knowledge AMA rules are not controlled or dictated by any special
interest
group.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">While
out for a walk this afternoon I had a couple more thoughts that I wish
to
share. First the story of how I got to masters should have included how
the
remaining advanced fliers would be affected by my absence. They will
likely be
trading first place advancement points, which will accumulating faster,
epically if a single individual dominates. Without gaining significant
proficiency someone could find himself or herself forced into masters
much less
prepared than I, which can be difficult at best. <u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">When
I spoke of using the raw score as a personal benchmark I was actually
using the
judge awarded average not the total K factor average. I found a couple
contest
records both of which had 10-point takeoff and landing, which
contributed
excessively to my performance average. The K-average was 1 to 2 % lower
due to
lower scores in higher K maneuvers. The value to be used needs to be
the K
value average.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The
other thing we should consider is revising / simplifying the rule used
to allow
a return to a lower class. Nobody enjoys being in last place all the
time. A
performance average used for advancement effectively identifies the
upper
performance limit within a class and an equally valid argument could be
made to
use a minimum value, below maybe 50%, to allow return to the next lower
class.
Of course this of course would not be mandatory.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The
thought also occurred to me that some incomplete flights due to a
double fowl
line violation should be included in the contest performance average as
well.
We don't see this very often but it justifiably pulls down the
competitor's
performance average.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">If
you have read this far you are interested. Don't worry about offending
me. Post
your thoughts.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="EmailStyle21"><u3:p></u3:p><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim
<u3:p></u3:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><u3:p></u3:p>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>John Konneker<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February
01, 2009
1:36 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Discussion List<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1.5in;"><font
color="black" face="Verdana" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"><u3:p></u3:p>Jim,<br>
Thank you for the thoughtful reply and your interest in the survey.<br>
As someone once told me, you can't have change without dissatisfaction.<br>
The subject of class advancement comes up often enough that one has<br>
to believe a lot of folks feel there is a better way.<br>
You bring up some excellent alternatives that need to be discussed.<br>
I know this discussion will lead to one or more survey proposals.<br>
I hope to have the survey ready to publish on the website, in the
K-Factor and <br>
Model Aviation and on the various forums by late summer. So we have
time<br>
to formulate your ideas.<br>
By the way, the survey will be open to ALL those interested in pattern.<br>
NOT just NSRCA members.<br>
Once again thanks Jim!<br>
JLK<br>
<br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a><br>
> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:37:25 -0800<br>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment<br>
> <br>
> John, I would be happy to get involved with this.<br>
> <br>
> I believe flight score averages derived from complete flights are
good<br>
> indicators of ability. Advancement could be based on multiple
contest<br>
> average (maybe 6???), enough to demonstrate consistency. 70%? 75%?
80%?
85%?<br>
> could be used as an advancement indicator rather it be mandatory
or simply
a<br>
> recommendation. Not having raw scores information it would be
difficult
for<br>
> me to suggest a hard number. Probably needs to be included in a
proposal!<br>
> Last season's contest raw scores would be a good indicator of an
appropriate<br>
> value.<br>
> <br>
> Here is my story:<br>
> I'm being pushed into masters where it's not likely that I will
ever be
very<br>
> competitive, but that's OK. I reached my personal plateau of about
80%<br>
> flying advanced in 2007. Through much of 2008 during practice I
was just<br>
> standing in the flight box going through the motions, talking to
who ever<br>
> was standing there. I expect I will be hard pressed to break 70%
in
masters.<br>
> My feeling is advancement percentage needs to increase with the
class<br>
> progression as the skill development or learning curve tends to
level out.<br>
> Not that the maneuvers are more difficult relative to our acquired
ability<br>
> but the sequences become much less forgiving of even simple errors.<br>
> <br>
> For something like this to work the AMA would need to maintain
accessible<br>
> records that are consistently updated by CD's. How many pattern
contests
are<br>
> sanctioned? Does AMA still require CD to send contest results to
AMA? How<br>
> many CD's actually do? We started to touch on this issue in the
'national<br>
> database' discussion last year. How can it be done? Who is going
to do it?<br>
> Who needs to be involved to make this happen? Are they interested?
Are we<br>
> (pattern fliers) interested?<br>
> <br>
> Change is never without obstacles. Lets discuss this and other
ideas and
add<br>
> it to the rules proposal survey. Lets try not to get overwhelmed
with<br>
> unreasonable high tech automated data management systems. We only
need one<br>
> additional number included with contest results and a new
advancement<br>
> 'points' card format.<br>
> <br>
> It's past time to try something different. John, how much time do
we have?<br>
> <br>
> Jim Hiller<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of John Konneker<br>
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:17 AM<br>
> To: Discussion List; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:d_bodary@yahoo.com">d_bodary@yahoo.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Classes & Growth<br>
> <br>
> hmmm...<br>
> Jim H.,<br>
> That looks like a good rules proposal in the making!<br>
> I'd be happy to include it in the survey.<br>
> ;-)<br>
> JLK<br>
> <br style="">
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