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<title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Work for
me!<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>How well
do you think it would be received?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 02, 2009
12:29 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>I’m coming in very
late to this discussion, but regardless of the system, I really think the
primary change needs to be that instead of ANY mandatory system, we change the
key word to be “Guideline”...meaning it’s a guideline for when to move, but not
a fast rule. This is pattern...a hobby. Yes, a competitive one, but
there’s no huge money riding on it (certainly not at the levels that are
subjected to this) and there will always be valid exceptions that no system can
take into account. So while we can and should work on improving the
advancement system to be as accurate as possible, I will likely submit a
proposal that simply changes the existing system to be a guideline, rather than
mandatory. <br>
<br>
I personally think that fixes almost everything. (well...with regard to pattern
advancement). :)<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/2/09 2:06 PM, "J N Hiller" <<a href="jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#993366'>I remember the
discussion, thanks for reminding me of the Australian system. Before it could
be considered we would need the national database which sidetracked the
discussion to change the advancement rule last year. I considered just
submitting a change proposal but time was short and I just walked away from it.
<br>
Pattern being an open rulebook event I suspect AMA would need to administrate
class advancement regardless of how it is done. <br>
Jim<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Gayer<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 02, 2009
7:07 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><br>
Jim,<br>
<br>
When this subject came up lst year I suggested looking into the advancement
system the Australian Pattern Association uses to address the issues you are
bringing up. Their system is maintained by the APA which maintains the status
of each pilot attending any sanctioned contests. In Australia you earn
advancement to the next class by beating a national standard (raw score)
three times in a running 12month period. They have 4 classes (FAI,Expert,
Advanced and Sportsman). Since the APA is keeping track of all competitor's
advancement status, there is no honor system or bookkeeping issues for the competitor.
Since advancement is based on national scoring averages of the FAI(Masters)
community, the quality of the local competition in the individual classes is
removed(mostly) from the class advancement criteria. Also, advancement of
the top flyer in a class locally has no impact on the advancement of the
remaining competitors in that class.<br>
I flew under this system for a couple of years and it works quite well. The
biggest problem, as always, was fair and honest judging. Typically,
classes were judged by competitors in the next higher class and there was a
tendency to keep lower class competitors down on the farm.<br>
More more information on the Australian advancement system, go to <a
href="http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au">http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au</a>
and drill down to rules and then MAAA Rules, scroll down to R/C Aerobatics
Grading System to get a complete description.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote: <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes John the NSRCA rules change survey is for ALL
who are interested in pattern (RC Aerobatics). We can't emphasize this enough.
For those who haven't been around longer than dirt, the objective of the NSRCA
is to gain some consensuses within the pattern community regarding rule change
proposals. This process reduced the total number of proposals the AMA change
process needed to deal with, many of which were in conflict or adversely
affecting each other, greatly complicating the re-right between the first and
second AMA votes. At least I think that is how it was. It's been a while! In
any case individuals can still make change proposals directly to AMA. To my
knowledge AMA rules are not controlled or dictated by any special interest
group.<br>
While out for a walk this afternoon I had a couple more thoughts that I wish to
share. First the story of how I got to masters should have included how the
remaining advanced fliers would be affected by my absence. They will likely be
trading first place advancement points, which will accumulating faster,
epically if a single individual dominates. Without gaining significant
proficiency someone could find himself or herself forced into masters much less
prepared than I, which can be difficult at best. <br>
When I spoke of using the raw score as a personal benchmark I was actually
using the judge awarded average not the total K factor average. I found a
couple contest records both of which had 10-point takeoff and landing, which
contributed excessively to my performance average. The K-average was 1 to 2 %
lower due to lower scores in higher K maneuvers. The value to be used needs to
be the K value average.<br>
The other thing we should consider is revising / simplifying the rule used to
allow a return to a lower class. Nobody enjoys being in last place all the
time. A performance average used for advancement effectively identifies the
upper performance limit within a class and an equally valid argument could be
made to use a minimum value, below maybe 50%, to allow return to the next lower
class. Of course this of course would not be mandatory.<br>
The thought also occurred to me that some incomplete flights due to a double
fowl line violation should be included in the contest performance average as
well. We don't see this very often but it justifiably pulls down the
competitor's performance average.<br>
If you have read this far you are interested. Don't worry about offending me.
Post your thoughts.<br>
Jim <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Konneker<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 01, 2009
1:36 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Discussion List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Jim,<br>
Thank you for the thoughtful reply and your interest in the survey.<br>
As someone once told me, you can't have change without dissatisfaction.<br>
The subject of class advancement comes up often enough that one has<br>
to believe a lot of folks feel there is a better way.<br>
You bring up some excellent alternatives that need to be discussed.<br>
I know this discussion will lead to one or more survey proposals.<br>
I hope to have the survey ready to publish on the website, in the K-Factor and <br>
Model Aviation and on the various forums by late summer. So we have time<br>
to formulate your ideas.<br>
By the way, the survey will be open to ALL those interested in pattern.<br>
NOT just NSRCA members.<br>
Once again thanks Jim!<br>
JLK<br>
<br>
> From: <a href="jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a><br>
> To: <a href="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:37:25 -0800<br>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment<br>
> <br>
> John, I would be happy to get involved with this.<br>
> <br>
> I believe flight score averages derived from complete flights are good<br>
> indicators of ability. Advancement could be based on multiple contest<br>
> average (maybe 6???), enough to demonstrate consistency. 70%? 75%? 80%?
85%?<br>
> could be used as an advancement indicator rather it be mandatory or simply
a<br>
> recommendation. Not having raw scores information it would be difficult
for<br>
> me to suggest a hard number. Probably needs to be included in a proposal!<br>
> Last season's contest raw scores would be a good indicator of an appropriate<br>
> value.<br>
> <br>
> Here is my story:<br>
> I'm being pushed into masters where it's not likely that I will ever be
very<br>
> competitive, but that's OK. I reached my personal plateau of about 80%<br>
> flying advanced in 2007. Through much of 2008 during practice I was just<br>
> standing in the flight box going through the motions, talking to who ever<br>
> was standing there. I expect I will be hard pressed to break 70% in
masters.<br>
> My feeling is advancement percentage needs to increase with the class<br>
> progression as the skill development or learning curve tends to level out.<br>
> Not that the maneuvers are more difficult relative to our acquired ability<br>
> but the sequences become much less forgiving of even simple errors.<br>
> <br>
> For something like this to work the AMA would need to maintain accessible<br>
> records that are consistently updated by CD's. How many pattern contests
are<br>
> sanctioned? Does AMA still require CD to send contest results to AMA? How<br>
> many CD's actually do? We started to touch on this issue in the 'national<br>
> database' discussion last year. How can it be done? Who is going to do it?<br>
> Who needs to be involved to make this happen? Are they interested? Are we<br>
> (pattern fliers) interested?<br>
> <br>
> Change is never without obstacles. Lets discuss this and other ideas and
add<br>
> it to the rules proposal survey. Lets try not to get overwhelmed with<br>
> unreasonable high tech automated data management systems. We only need one<br>
> additional number included with contest results and a new advancement<br>
> 'points' card format.<br>
> <br>
> It's past time to try something different. John, how much time do we have?<br>
> <br>
> Jim Hiller<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5DOn">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On</a>
Behalf Of John Konneker<br>
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:17 AM<br>
> To: Discussion List; <a href="d_bodary@yahoo.com">d_bodary@yahoo.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Classes & Growth<br>
> <br>
> hmmm...<br>
> Jim H.,<br>
> That looks like a good rules proposal in the making!<br>
> I'd be happy to include it in the survey.<br>
> ;-)<br>
> JLK<br>
> <br>
<br>
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