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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Guys, Hi John...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Sorry-been lurking for a while now. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Yes John is correct about our system and I must say it kind
of works ok. Nothing is ever perfect, but it does work. Maybe you guys can learn
something from us?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>On another note, I've been a NSRCA member now since '95 ( I
think?) and Oh dear...I must renew...Sorry Jim! I have very few reasons actually
to be a NSRCA member!!! What can the NSRCA do for me????? All I can get is
that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I am part of the pattern
community-is that enough?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>On top of that, now that the dues have increased, the
exchange rate is killing me!!! Let me ask this-how many of you would pay $100
for the K-factor alone?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Well, I will-and I get no benefit at all from your
organisation. Or do I?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In all truth, I actually think I get great value! I have
made some great friends over the years and how does one put a monetary value on
that? So ( Jim in particular) I will renew asap...but I just might watch the
exchange rates for a day or two and try and pick a good
time!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Oh-and I will write and contribute to the K-factor-I just
need to line up a few more ducks first.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Fuels: Guys down here most of us mix our own using the
Coolpower oil. We source Nitro from VP ( or other brands) and buy methanol
anywhere we can, as long as its pure. To buy pre mix is disgustingly expensive.
I think a gallon of CP30 Heli will be close to $85. Just plain madness in my
opinion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Electrics will flourish eventually-simply from an economic
point of view. You guys in the US do not always appreciate just how lucky you
are!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Gasoline ( we call it Petrol :-) right now seems to be
around $1.20- $1.30 per litre. Just a little trivia for you all.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=948065722-02022009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Gayer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 3 February 2009 2:07 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory
Advancment<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>When this subject came up lst year I suggested looking
into the advancement system the Australian Pattern Association uses to address
the issues you are bringing up. Their system is maintained by the APA which
maintains the status of each pilot attending any sanctioned contests. In
Australia you earn advancement to the next class by beating a national
standard (raw score) three times in a running 12month period. They have 4
classes (FAI,Expert, Advanced and Sportsman). Since the APA is keeping track of
all competitor's advancement status, there is no honor system or bookkeeping
issues for the competitor. Since advancement is based on national scoring
averages of the FAI(Masters) community, the quality of the local competition in
the individual classes is removed(mostly) from the class advancement
criteria. Also, advancement of the top flyer in a class locally has no
impact on the advancement of the remaining competitors in that class.<BR>I flew
under this system for a couple of years and it works quite well. The biggest
problem, as always, was fair and honest judging. Typically, classes were
judged by competitors in the next higher class and there was a tendency to keep
lower class competitors down on the farm.<BR>More more information on the
Australian advancement system, go to <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au">http://www.australianpatternassociation.com.au</A>
and drill down to rules and then MAAA Rules, scroll down to R/C Aerobatics
Grading System to get a complete description.<BR><BR>John<BR> <BR><BR>J N
Hiller wrote:
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes John the NSRCA
rules change survey is for ALL who are interested in pattern (RC Aerobatics).
We can't emphasize this enough. For those who haven't been around longer than
dirt, the objective of the NSRCA is to gain some consensuses within the
pattern community regarding rule change proposals. This process reduced the
total number of proposals the AMA change process needed to deal with, many of
which were in conflict or adversely affecting each other, greatly complicating
the re-right between the first and second AMA votes. At least I think that is
how it was. It's been a while! In any case individuals can still make change
proposals directly to AMA. To my knowledge AMA rules are not controlled or
dictated by any special interest group.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While out for a walk
this afternoon I had a couple more thoughts that I wish to share. First the
story of how I got to masters should have included how the remaining advanced
fliers would be affected by my absence. They will likely be trading first
place advancement points, which will accumulating faster, epically if a single
individual dominates. Without gaining significant proficiency someone could
find himself or herself forced into masters much less prepared than I, which
can be difficult at best. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When I spoke of using
the raw score as a personal benchmark I was actually using the judge awarded
average not the total K factor average. I found a couple contest records both
of which had 10-point takeoff and landing, which contributed excessively to my
performance average. The K-average was 1 to 2 % lower due to lower scores in
higher K maneuvers. The value to be used needs to be the K value
average.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The other thing we
should consider is revising / simplifying the rule used to allow a return to a
lower class. Nobody enjoys being in last place all the time. A performance
average used for advancement effectively identifies the upper performance
limit within a class and an equally valid argument could be made to use a
minimum value, below maybe 50%, to allow return to the next lower class. Of
course this of course would not be
mandatory.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The thought also
occurred to me that some incomplete flights due to a double fowl line
violation should be included in the contest performance average as well. We
don't see this very often but it justifiably pulls down the competitor's
performance average.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you have read this
far you are interested. Don't worry about offending me. Post your
thoughts.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
<SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Konneker<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:36
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Mandatory Advancment</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Jim,<BR>Thank you
for the thoughtful reply and your interest in the survey.<BR>As someone once
told me, you can't have change without dissatisfaction.<BR>The subject of
class advancement comes up often enough that one has<BR>to believe a lot of
folks feel there is a better way.<BR>You bring up some excellent alternatives
that need to be discussed.<BR>I know this discussion will lead to one or
more survey proposals.<BR>I hope to have the survey ready to publish on the
website, in the K-Factor and <BR>Model Aviation and on the various forums
by late summer. So we have time<BR>to formulate your ideas.<BR>By the
way, the survey will be open to ALL those interested in pattern.<BR>NOT just
NSRCA members.<BR>Once again thanks Jim!<BR>JLK<BR><BR>> From: <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A><BR>> To: <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:37:25 -0800<BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mandatory Advancment<BR>> <BR>> John, I would be happy to get involved
with this.<BR>> <BR>> I believe flight score averages derived from
complete flights are good<BR>> indicators of ability. Advancement could be
based on multiple contest<BR>> average (maybe 6???), enough to demonstrate
consistency. 70%? 75%? 80%? 85%?<BR>> could be used as an advancement
indicator rather it be mandatory or simply a<BR>> recommendation. Not
having raw scores information it would be difficult for<BR>> me to suggest
a hard number. Probably needs to be included in a proposal!<BR>> Last
season's contest raw scores would be a good indicator of an
appropriate<BR>> value.<BR>> <BR>> Here is my story:<BR>> I'm
being pushed into masters where it's not likely that I will ever be
very<BR>> competitive, but that's OK. I reached my personal plateau of
about 80%<BR>> flying advanced in 2007. Through much of 2008 during
practice I was just<BR>> standing in the flight box going through the
motions, talking to who ever<BR>> was standing there. I expect I will be
hard pressed to break 70% in masters.<BR>> My feeling is advancement
percentage needs to increase with the class<BR>> progression as the skill
development or learning curve tends to level out.<BR>> Not that the
maneuvers are more difficult relative to our acquired ability<BR>> but the
sequences become much less forgiving of even simple errors.<BR>> <BR>>
For something like this to work the AMA would need to maintain
accessible<BR>> records that are consistently updated by CD's. How many
pattern contests are<BR>> sanctioned? Does AMA still require CD to send
contest results to AMA? How<BR>> many CD's actually do? We started to touch
on this issue in the 'national<BR>> database' discussion last year. How can
it be done? Who is going to do it?<BR>> Who needs to be involved to make
this happen? Are they interested? Are we<BR>> (pattern fliers)
interested?<BR>> <BR>> Change is never without obstacles. Lets discuss
this and other ideas and add<BR>> it to the rules proposal survey. Lets try
not to get overwhelmed with<BR>> unreasonable high tech automated data
management systems. We only need one<BR>> additional number included with
contest results and a new advancement<BR>> 'points' card format.<BR>>
<BR>> It's past time to try something different. John, how much time do we
have?<BR>> <BR>> Jim Hiller<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of John Konneker<BR>> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:17
AM<BR>> To: Discussion List; <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d_bodary@yahoo.com">d_bodary@yahoo.com</A><BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Classes & Growth<BR>> <BR>>
hmmm...<BR>> Jim H.,<BR>> That looks like a good rules proposal in the
making!<BR>> I'd be happy to include it in the survey.<BR>> ;-)<BR>>
JLK<BR>> <BR><!--[if
!supportLineBreakNewLine]--><BR><!--[endif]--></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><PRE wrap=""><HR width="90%" SIZE=4>
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