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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have no issue with it in Sportsman, but allowing
it in any other class would cause too many delays.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rob@koolsoft.com href="mailto:rob@koolsoft.com">Robert L.
Beaubien</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 30, 2009 5:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor
morphed into Grow Pattern</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Most
CD's already allow ANY AMA legal plane for Sportsman. I would like to
see that capped at 50cc and extended to Intermediate. Field sound rules
should not be violated at anytime. It's up to the CD to make sure
contestants are within the rules of the field.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
Sr. Software Architect<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
Kool Software LLC<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Matthew
Frederick<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 30, 2009 4:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor
morphed into Grow Pattern<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It would make for
some very unhappy Masters and FAI pilots. Plus you couldn't hear if you had a
flameout with a pattern plane with a 50CC gasser running at the same
time!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=rob@koolsoft.com href="mailto:rob@koolsoft.com">Robert L. Beaubien</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Thursday,
January 29, 2009 8:32 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I'd
be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate class as
well. IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is
easy. We all know that it's a lot harder than they think to do
"Straight flight out", but perception is hard to get by. Mebby
set a limit of 50cc for Sportsman and Intermediate. It could make for
some fun contests.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Another
thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to change all the
schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2 or 3
different routines as could Intermediate. No need to create completely
new routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something I would
like to see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying
Intermediate for 2 years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to
practice this year. :-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Michael Cohen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18
PM<BR><B>To:</B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Well, why don't
we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in pattern? If
they like their first contest, they will find a more pattern like airplane
before moving up to intermediate!<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009
18:46:46 +0000<BR>> From: seefo@san.rr.com<BR>> To:
jpavlick@idseng.com; nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Pattern really
needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a reasonable price point.
Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several of them so people can have
choices in what to fly.<BR>> <BR>> With IMAC, you can get an airplane
of the same size (2m), RTF including engine and radio for what the majority
of the ARFs cost for a pattern airplane airframe only.<BR>> <BR>>
Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority. <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> wrote: <BR>> > Well said John..
<BR>> > <BR>> > On another note, didn't this start out as a
"please take an online vote" email.<BR>> > <BR>> > On even
another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be interested in
flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have made a great
impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are really into
the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and impressive. We lack
this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring to
me, except for foamies)<BR>> > As someone stated earlier, pattern
doesn't have the market flooded with $400-500 arfs that almost every person
at my field and other fields locally have. If we did, I know of many people
at my field that would buy one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a
new plane to the field, people ask me how much, and where can they get one.
When I tell em how much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something
like Hester. He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger
magazines, how many pattern planes do you see in those ads? <BR>> >
<BR>> > Chris <BR>> > <BR>> > --- On
Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com> wrote:<BR>> >
From: John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com><BR>> > Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<BR>> > To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> > Date: Thursday,
January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM<BR>> > <BR>> > Jim,<BR>> >
Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there
is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this.
Part of the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas
where you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized
contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty
of room for shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.<BR>>
> <BR>> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to
enlighten a few people and make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By
this I mean IMAC AND Pattern. Some people just don't want to fly
Pattern, whereas others simply don't want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as
I'm concerned but the point is they need to know about them. That's
where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the most. People simply
don't know that we exist. We need to increase our visibility if we want to
attract new members. We DON'T need to change anything with how we fly, how
we judge, etc. At least not to attract new people. All we need to do is let
them know we're here and that they can fly with us if they want to. No
pressure to join. Just take your basic sport model to a contest and fly a
few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry
about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern,
that's one of the things that we<BR>> > need to do. If
printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will help with that
cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can drop them off.
:)<BR>> > <BR>> > John Pavlick<BR>> > <BR>>
> BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a
club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew
that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I
built a new airplane, started going to contests and joined the
NSRCA.<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09,
Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:<BR>>
> <BR>> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>> > To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> > Date: Thursday,
January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>>
> <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >
JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it
something important other day stating something to the effect that, “… if
you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own.” (forgive me
if it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally
different in many ways and being that I’m involved in the
District/Leadership of each, I’ll list a few in no particular order:<BR>>
> 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate
in IMAC: in a 50 person contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced,
and 40 persons spread almost equally between the lower classes<BR>> >
2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in
Pattern: In a 20 person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread
between lower classes.<BR>> > 3.
R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event. Not so
sure for the pattern event.<BR>> >
4. Not such a rush to move up in classes
in IMAC: IMAC changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each
contest, all classes except for Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a
hurry. For instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree
rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin. There
is no mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult than the normal
sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just different. There is not an
expectation that all pilots will reach the “destination” class. There
is no destination class in IMAC. <BR>> >
5. Piloting differences? I find
the average IMAC pilot is a fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning
the precision side of things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in
the evening see them throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle
most of us would dare try. The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can
fly a higher scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and
positioning), but lack in some of the other R/C roundness.<BR>> >
6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys
“who used to fly pattern” in them. I’ve heard it all as to why they
stopped flying pattern and here it is (believe me or not , up to
you):<BR>> > a. Pattern is too
political at the top<BR>> > b. Feeling
of Topped out – it didn’t matter how much I practiced, I couldn’t improve my
scores or beat that one guy<BR>> >
c. Best flights aren’t winning
rounds<BR>> > d. Didn’t fit in<BR>>
> e. These are opinions range from normal
pilots, to “top guys” that only fly IMAC now<BR>> >
7. Flying/Positioning – I love the
pattern way of flying in a box, with a centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC
way of writing sequences with “sort of left, sort of right” maneuvers.
I understand why it is done and such, but I’d take the box anyday.
Flying the box in pattern is its “own-significant-difficulty” which makes
the less complex maneuvers harder to do. The IMAC way lets them
“load-up” each maneuver into a super-complex deal – very hard to score well
I may add too. However, its all part of the pie.<BR>> >
8. Winning? In pattern, a win
means you flew the sequences the best. This is cool because often you
can “beat” a better pilot, by flying the maneuver you need to know how to do
better than the other guys. In IMAC, usually the “best” pilots wins,
because it is a combination of flying the known and unknown. <BR>> >
9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the
best, but are harder to fly well. Pattern planes are less affected by
small changes in atmospheric conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE
-- you almost always have enough power in a pattern plane regardless
of sequence flown. IMAC - totally different. Humidity
(specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane. Power
requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes. For instance,
unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to move up
without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly
“wings-level”, but the judging penalties<BR>> > are 0.5 point per 5
degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees. <BR>> > 10.
Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what the NSRCA stance is on
judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging
programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for judging. How
do they do this? They fly in people from all around the country for a
national-type of judge certification. These guys then go forth and
carry the message.<BR>> > a. Why
do they do this? Because they know that regional differences and
biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization. They
put a huge leadership and organizational priority on getting judging
right. – if you know me – you know I like that. <BR>> >
<BR>> > So, there are many, many differences between the
two. Personally, I gravitate towards flying the pattern plane.
However, the “competitive” factors in IMAC are solid too and given the
activity around my neck of the woods, you can’t pass it up. So what’s
the point, I guess the point still is that the total formula is
working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is not. What can we take
from the differences to tune-up our own game? And regarding the
K-factor – in today’s economy it is hard to justify business decisions that
don’t break even. <BR>> > Jim<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller<BR>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM<BR>> >
To: General pattern discussion<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>> > <BR>> > IMAC
v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC popularity can
be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful high
performance readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern flying
is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are
represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and
interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and
boring to those not directly involved. <BR>> > I didn't want to get
into this here but I question how many non-pattern folks would read a free
K-Factor. There is a free sample available there now. Is anybody finding it?
The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I couldn't get Google to find
the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC
showed up. It's as if some amount of prior knowledge is needed before an
outsider can gain access to pattern activity. <BR>> > AMA doesn't do a
very good of job explaining competition events or activity and if you don't
know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck. How dose an outsider become
aware of and interested in any competition event without knowing where to
look? <BR>> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none.
I have been receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a
copy machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same;
mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a competition
newsletter with content of interest to those involved and of questionable
interest to outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for
growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens at
the local level with people having fun. <BR>> > To be active
competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount of disposable
income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking pool of people
willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate in what appears to
be a very regimented activity flown near the limit of visibility for many.
Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat restricted by trying to
remain compatible with FAI.<BR>> > I have probably gone on too long
but I don't believe our salvation lies in a free K-Factor, not that it
shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our sport.<BR>> > Sorry
Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.<BR>> > Jim
Hiller<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > -----Original
Message-----<BR>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy
Newman<BR>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM<BR>> >
To: General pattern discussion<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > Jim,<BR>> > <BR>> > What is really
amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC contests attract
60-70 pilots.<BR>> > <BR>> > IMAC membership is up near
1000 members. They have an online only newsletter. Not even a
magazine.<BR>> > <BR>> > Why would it be horrible to
emulate an organization that is successful like that.<BR>> >
<BR>> > They can’t be doing anything right they are just
IMACers<BR>> > Just something to think about.<BR>> >
<BR>> >
Troy_______________________________________________<BR>> >
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<BR>>
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