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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It would make for some very unhappy Masters and FAI
pilots. Plus you couldn't hear if you had a flameout with a pattern plane with a
50CC gasser running at the same time!</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rob@koolsoft.com href="mailto:rob@koolsoft.com">Robert L.
Beaubien</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor
morphed into Grow Pattern</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I'd
be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate class as well.
IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is easy. We all
know that it's a lot harder than they think to do "Straight flight out", but
perception is hard to get by. Mebby set a limit of 50cc for
Sportsman and Intermediate. It could make for some fun
contests.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Another
thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to change all the
schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2 or 3 different
routines as could Intermediate. No need to create completely new
routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something I would like
to see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying Intermediate for
2 years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to practice this year.
:-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-
NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Michael
Cohen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Well, why don't
we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in pattern? If
they like their first contest, they will find a more pattern like airplane
before moving up to intermediate!<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46
+0000<BR>> From: seefo@san.rr.com<BR>> To: jpavlick@idseng.com;
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market
at a reasonable price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several
of them so people can have choices in what to fly.<BR>> <BR>> With IMAC,
you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF including engine and radio
for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a pattern airplane airframe
only.<BR>> <BR>> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority.
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> wrote: <BR>> > Well said John..
<BR>> > <BR>> > On another note, didn't this start out as a
"please take an online vote" email.<BR>> > <BR>> > On even another
note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be interested in flying IMAC
IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have made a great impact so that
anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are really into the foamies and the
freestyles because they are fun, and impressive. We lack this fun type of
flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring to me, except for
foamies)<BR>> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the
market flooded with $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and
other fields locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that
would buy one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the
field, people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how
much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on
the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many
pattern planes do you see in those ads? <BR>> > <BR>> > Chris
<BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John
Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com> wrote:<BR>> > From: John Pavlick
<jpavlick@idseng.com><BR>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor
morphed into Grow Pattern<BR>> > To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> > Date: Thursday, January
29, 2009, 7:01 AM<BR>> > <BR>> > Jim,<BR>> >
Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there is
almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where you're
allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My state
pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for shopping
centers and "retirement communities" however.<BR>> > <BR>> >
Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and make
them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern. Some
people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't want to fly
IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is they need to know
about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the most.
People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase our visibility if
we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change anything with how we
fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new people. All we need to do
is let them know we're here and that they can fly with us if they want to. No
pressure to join. Just take your basic sport model to a contest and fly a few
rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry about the
weight or size. Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern, that's one of
the things that we<BR>> > need to do. If printed copies of the
K-Factor at local hobby shops will help with that cause (it just might), then
send me a box so I can drop them off. :)<BR>> > <BR>> >
John Pavlick<BR>> > <BR>> > BTW - I actually did learn about
the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a club member handed me a copy that he
picked up somewhere. Once I knew that Patttern was still alive in my area
(I had taken a LONG hiatus) I built a new airplane, started going to
contests and joined the NSRCA.<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >
--- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> > From:
Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> > Date: Thursday, January
29, 2009, 2:16 PM<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > JN –
there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable history to
the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it something
important other day stating something to the effect that, “… if you are not in
FAI or Masters you are left on your own.” (forgive me if it wasn’t Jay
or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in many ways and
being that I’m involved in the District/Leadership of each, I’ll list a few in
no particular order:<BR>> > 1.
Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person contest, there
are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost equally between the
lower classes<BR>> > 2. Sportsman,
Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10
Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes.<BR>> >
3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest
as a money-making event. Not so sure for the pattern event.<BR>> >
4. Not such a rush to move up in classes
in IMAC: IMAC changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each
contest, all classes except for Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a
hurry. For instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree rolling
turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin. There is no
mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult than the normal sequence,
sometimes easier, sometimes just different. There is not an expectation
that all pilots will reach the “destination” class. There is no
destination class in IMAC. <BR>> >
5. Piloting differences? I find the
average IMAC pilot is a fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the
precision side of things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the
evening see them throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of
us would dare try. The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a
higher scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and
positioning), but lack in some of the other R/C roundness.<BR>> >
6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys “who
used to fly pattern” in them. I’ve heard it all as to why they stopped
flying pattern and here it is (believe me or not , up to you):<BR>> >
a. Pattern is too political at the
top<BR>> > b. Feeling of Topped out – it
didn’t matter how much I practiced, I couldn’t improve my scores or beat that
one guy<BR>> > c. Best flights
aren’t winning rounds<BR>> > d. Didn’t fit
in<BR>> > e. These are opinions range from
normal pilots, to “top guys” that only fly IMAC now<BR>> >
7. Flying/Positioning – I love the pattern
way of flying in a box, with a centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of
writing sequences with “sort of left, sort of right” maneuvers. I
understand why it is done and such, but I’d take the box anyday. Flying
the box in pattern is its “own-significant-difficulty” which makes the less
complex maneuvers harder to do. The IMAC way lets them “load-up” each
maneuver into a super-complex deal – very hard to score well I may add
too. However, its all part of the pie.<BR>> >
8. Winning? In pattern, a win means
you flew the sequences the best. This is cool because often you can
“beat” a better pilot, by flying the maneuver you need to know how to do
better than the other guys. In IMAC, usually the “best” pilots wins,
because it is a combination of flying the known and unknown. <BR>> >
9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the
best, but are harder to fly well. Pattern planes are less affected by
small changes in atmospheric conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE --
you almost always have enough power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence
flown. IMAC - totally different. Humidity (specifically),
can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane. Power requirements
change hugely with sequence/class changes. For instance, unlimited need
a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to move up without changing
equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly “wings-level”, but the judging
penalties<BR>> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15
degrees. <BR>> > 10. Organizational view on Judging – I
don’t know what the NSRCA stance is on judging right now. In IMAC, there
is HUGE $$$ spent on judging programs, seminars, and creating a national
standard for judging. How do they do this? They fly in people from
all around the country for a national-type of judge certification. These
guys then go forth and carry the message.<BR>> >
a. Why do they do this? Because they
know that regional differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can
kill-off an organization. They put a huge leadership and organizational
priority on getting judging right. – if you know me – you know I like
that. <BR>> > <BR>> > So, there are many, many differences
between the two. Personally, I gravitate towards flying the pattern
plane. However, the “competitive” factors in IMAC are solid too and
given the activity around my neck of the woods, you can’t pass it up. So
what’s the point, I guess the point still is that the total formula is
working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is not. What can we take from
the differences to tune-up our own game? And regarding the K-factor – in
today’s economy it is hard to justify business decisions that don’t break
even. <BR>> > Jim<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>>
> <BR>> > <BR>> > From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller<BR>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM<BR>> > To:
General pattern discussion<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>> > <BR>> > IMAC
v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC popularity can be
traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful high performance
readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern flying is absent
from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly
everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and interests spectators.
Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and boring to those not
directly involved. <BR>> > I didn't want to get into this here but I
question how many non-pattern folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a
free sample available there now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is
"Pattern" visibility. I couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying
aerobatics, RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some
amount of prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to
pattern activity. <BR>> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining
competition events or activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are
kind of out of luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in
any competition event without knowing where to look? <BR>> > As for the
K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been receiving them since
it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy machine. The content has for
the most part remained about the same; mostly contest results and district
news. It's more of a competition newsletter with content of interest to those
involved and of questionable interest to outsiders or the mildly interested.
There is little seed for growing interest in any rulebook event on the
Internet. It only happens at the local level with people having fun. <BR>>
> To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount
of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking pool
of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate in what
appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the limit of visibility
for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat restricted by
trying to remain compatible with FAI.<BR>> > I have probably gone on too
long but I don't believe our salvation lies in a free K-Factor, not that it
shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our sport.<BR>> > Sorry Derek,
forgive me for splattering this even more.<BR>> > Jim Hiller<BR>>
> <BR>> > <BR>> > -----Original
Message-----<BR>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy
Newman<BR>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM<BR>> > To:
General pattern discussion<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > Jim,<BR>> > <BR>> > What is really
amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC contests attract
60-70 pilots.<BR>> > <BR>> > IMAC membership is up near 1000
members. They have an online only newsletter. Not even a magazine.<BR>>
> <BR>> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization
that is successful like that.<BR>> > <BR>> > They can’t be
doing anything right they are just IMACers<BR>> > Just something to
think about.<BR>> > <BR>> >
Troy_______________________________________________<BR>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<BR>>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
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