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<DIV>OK, there's 4. That's enough to get going.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=AtwoodDon@aol.com
href="mailto:AtwoodDon@aol.com">AtwoodDon@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:42
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor
morphed into Grow Pattern</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>The Venus II and the Spot-On 120 and the Leo 110 and........ all
good airplanes in the Sportsman/Int/Advanced clases</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/29/2009 6:22:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, <A
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>Agreed. There's the Aquila and...<BR><BR>Ed<BR>----- Original Message
----- <BR>From: <<A
href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">seefo@san.rr.com</A>><BR>To: <<A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</A>>; "General
pattern discussion" <BR><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>;
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009
1:46 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF
to enter market at a reasonable <BR>> price point. Something like $500.
In fact.. it needs several of them so <BR>> people can have choices in
what to fly.<BR>><BR>> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same
size (2m), RTF including <BR>> engine and radio for what the majority of
the ARFs cost for a pattern <BR>> airplane airframe only.<BR>><BR>>
Getting the costs under control should be #1
priority.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>>> Well said
John..<BR>>><BR>>> On another note, didn't this start out as a
"please take an online vote" <BR>>> email.<BR>>><BR>>> On
even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be <BR>>>
interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies
<BR>>> have made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front
yards. <BR>>> Kids are really into the foamies and the freestyles
because they are fun, <BR>>> and impressive. We lack this fun type of
flying in their minds. (Not to <BR>>> me, 3d is somewhat boring to me,
except for foamies)<BR>>> As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't
have the market flooded with <BR>>> $400-500 arfs that almost every
person at my field and other fields <BR>>> locally have. If we did, I
know of many people at my field that would buy <BR>>> one. They have
told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, <BR>>> people
ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how <BR>>>
much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester.
<BR>>> He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger
magazines, <BR>>> how many pattern planes do you see in those
ads?<BR>>><BR>>> Chris<BR>>><BR>>> --- On Thu,
1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com> wrote:<BR>>> From:
John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com><BR>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<BR>>> To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>> Date: Thursday, January
29, 2009, 7:01 AM<BR>>><BR>>> Jim,<BR>>> Interesting
observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there is <BR>>>
almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
<BR>>> the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas
where <BR>>> you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an
organized <BR>>> contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard.
There sems to be <BR>>> plenty of room for shopping centers and
"retirement communities" however.<BR>>><BR>>> Even with these
restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and <BR>>> make
them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
<BR>>> Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others
simply don't <BR>>> want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm
concerned but the point is <BR>>> they need to know about them. That's
where I think Patttern and the NSRCA <BR>>> suffers the most. People
simply don't know that we exist. We need to <BR>>> increase our
visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need <BR>>> to
change anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to
<BR>>> attract new people. All we need to do is let them know we're
here and <BR>>> that they can fly with us if they want to. No pressure
to join. Just take <BR>>> your basic sport model to a contest and fly
a few rounds in Sportsman. <BR>>> Don't buy a new radio or airplane.
Don't worry about the weight or size. <BR>>> Just show up. If we want
to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that <BR>>>
we<BR>>> need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local
hobby shops will <BR>>> help with that cause (it just might), then
send me a box so I can drop <BR>>> them off.
:)<BR>>><BR>>> John Pavlick<BR>>><BR>>> BTW - I
actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a <BR>>>
club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew
<BR>>> that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG
hiatus) I <BR>>> built a new airplane, started going to contests and
joined the NSRCA.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Thu, 1/29/09,
Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> <BR>>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>>> To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>> Date: Thursday, January
29, 2009, 2:16
PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
<BR>>> history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit
on it <BR>>> something important other day stating something to the
effect that, “… if <BR>>> you are not in FAI or Masters you are left
on your own.” (forgive me if <BR>>> it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted).
Pattern and IMAC are totally different in <BR>>> many ways and being
that I’m involved in the District/Leadership of each, <BR>>> I’ll list
a few in no particular order:<BR>>> 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate
in IMAC: in a 50 person contest, there <BR>>> are 5 Unlimited, 5
Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost equally between <BR>>> the
lower classes<BR>>> 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern:
In a 20 person contest, <BR>>> maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10
spread between lower classes.<BR>>> 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC
Contest as a money-making event. Not so <BR>>> sure for the pattern
event.<BR>>> 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC
changes sequences <BR>>> yearly and has unknowns flown each contest,
all classes except for Basic. <BR>>> IMAC classes get harder in a
hurry. For instance the intermediate class <BR>>> will have a 90
degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a <BR>>>
spin. There is no mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult
<BR>>> than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just
different. <BR>>> There is not an expectation that all pilots will
reach the “destination” <BR>>> class. There is no destination class in
IMAC.<BR>>> 5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is
a fairly high <BR>>> skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision
side of things. You <BR>>> might watch a OK sequence, but later in the
evening see them throwing it <BR>>> down on the deck in aggressive
Freestyle most of us would dare try. The <BR>>> Pattern guys grow-up
precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn <BR>>> and have
better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some
<BR>>> of the other R/C roundness.<BR>>> 6. The IMAC ranks have
a lot of guys “who used to fly pattern” in them. I’ve <BR>>> heard it
all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it is <BR>>>
(believe me or not , up to you):<BR>>> a. Pattern is too political at
the top<BR>>> b. Feeling of Topped out – it didn’t matter how much I
practiced, I <BR>>> couldn’t improve my scores or beat that one
guy<BR>>> c. Best flights aren’t winning rounds<BR>>> d. Didn’t
fit in<BR>>> e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to “top
guys” that only <BR>>> fly IMAC now<BR>>> 7. Flying/Positioning
– I love the pattern way of flying in a box, with a <BR>>> centerpole
– I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with “sort <BR>>>
of left, sort of right” maneuvers. I understand why it is done and such,
<BR>>> but I’d take the box anyday. Flying the box in pattern is its
<BR>>> “own-significant-difficulty” which makes the less complex
maneuvers <BR>>> harder to do. The IMAC way lets them “load-up” each
maneuver into a <BR>>> super-complex deal – very hard to score well I
may add too. However, its <BR>>> all part of the pie.<BR>>> 8.
Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the best. This
<BR>>> is cool because often you can “beat” a better pilot, by flying
the <BR>>> maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other
guys. In IMAC, <BR>>> usually the “best” pilots wins, because it is a
combination of flying the <BR>>> known and unknown.<BR>>> 9.
Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly well.
<BR>>> Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in
atmospheric <BR>>> conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE -- you
almost always have enough <BR>>> power in a pattern plane regardless
of sequence flown. IMAC - totally <BR>>> different. Humidity
(specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of <BR>>> your plane.
Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes. <BR>>>
For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy
<BR>>> to move up without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to
fly <BR>>> “wings-level”, but the judging penalties<BR>>>
are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.<BR>>>
10. Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what the NSRCA stance
<BR>>> is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on
judging <BR>>> programs, seminars, and creating a national standard
for judging. How do <BR>>> they do this? They fly in people from all
around the country for a <BR>>> national-type of judge certification.
These guys then go forth and carry <BR>>> the message.<BR>>> a.
Why do they do this? Because they know that regional differences and
<BR>>> biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization.
They put a <BR>>> huge leadership and organizational priority on
getting judging right. – <BR>>> if you know me – you know I like
that.<BR>>><BR>>> So, there are many, many differences between
the two. Personally, I <BR>>> gravitate towards flying the pattern
plane. However, the “competitive” <BR>>> factors in IMAC are solid too
and given the activity around my neck of <BR>>> the woods, you can’t
pass it up. So what’s the point, I guess the point <BR>>> still is
that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is
<BR>>> not. What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own
game? And <BR>>> regarding the K-factor – in today’s economy it is
hard to justify <BR>>> business decisions that don’t break
even.<BR>>>
Jim<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller<BR>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM<BR>>> To:
General pattern discussion<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<BR>>><BR>>> IMAC v/s
Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC <BR>>>
popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large
<BR>>> colorful high performance readily available aircraft but mostly
<BR>>> visibility. Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but
large <BR>>> aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere.
The big airplanes <BR>>> attract the press and interests spectators.
Pattern by comparison is <BR>>> extremely repetitious and boring to
those not directly involved.<BR>>> I didn't want to get into this here
but I question how many non-pattern <BR>>> folks would read a free
K-Factor. There is a free sample available there <BR>>> now. Is
anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
<BR>>> couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics,
RC <BR>>> aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if
some amount of <BR>>> prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can
gain access to pattern <BR>>> activity.<BR>>> AMA doesn't do a
very good of job explaining competition events or <BR>>> activity and
if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of <BR>>> luck.
How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any <BR>>>
competition event without knowing where to look?<BR>>> As for the
K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been <BR>>>
receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
<BR>>> machine. The content has for the most part remained about the
same; <BR>>> mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a
competition <BR>>> newsletter with content of interest to those
involved and of questionable <BR>>> interest to outsiders or the
mildly interested. There is little seed for <BR>>> growing interest in
any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens <BR>>> at the
local level with people having fun.<BR>>> To be active competitors in
either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount <BR>>> of disposable
income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking <BR>>>
pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate
<BR>>> in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the
limit of <BR>>> visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we
(Pattern) is somewhat <BR>>> restricted by trying to remain compatible
with FAI.<BR>>> I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe
our salvation lies <BR>>> in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't
be, it just won't draw many to <BR>>> our sport.<BR>>> Sorry
Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.<BR>>> Jim
Hiller<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
<BR>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
Troy Newman<BR>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44
PM<BR>>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor
Poll<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Jim,<BR>>><BR>>> What
is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC
<BR>>> contests attract 60-70 pilots.<BR>>><BR>>> IMAC
membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only <BR>>>
newsletter. Not even a magazine.<BR>>><BR>>> Why would it be
horrible to emulate an organization that is successful <BR>>> like
that.<BR>>><BR>>> They can’t be doing anything right they are
just IMACers<BR>>> Just something to think
about.<BR>>><BR>>>
Troy_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
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