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<DIV><SPAN class=515585701-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ouch.
I probably still have about a hundred e-mails from last time. Neither my
airplane or I like them. Nothing very precision about a truly out of
control maneuver. I still remember some of Rick Alison's comments when the 45
down snap was added about 20 years ago.Yes it was tough then as
well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=515585701-06012009></SPAN><SPAN class=515585701-06012009><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>billglaze<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 5:00 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aresti
takes precedence<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Snap Roll vs. Spin? Downwind turn?
Ready?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">J N
Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 7:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aresti
takes precedence</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031434400-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
can't find any documentation that requires that an exit or entry line be
included as part of the maneuver. We are not talking about the maneuver
separation line here although it cirtinaly could be the same stretch of
S&L flight. If the maneuver actually included an exit line I would think
the maneuver separation line would need to be in addition to it. I believe
the judge training manual is pretty clear on how we should be flying and
judging.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031434400-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
think we have just about beat this issue into
submission.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031434400-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>I'm finished. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031434400-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Next subject!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031434400-06012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Scott
Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 3:38 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Aresti
takes precedence<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">How can that
be? The word Aresti doesn’t even appear in the regulations (which by
the way has been updated for 2009 and is available at
http://www.modelaircraft.org/UserFiles/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf)
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hey, I just found
ARESTI on pg RCA-13…what’s wrong with the PDF search?? Anyway, if
Aresti takes precedent, I need some more elevator throw for those bottom
radii on the humpty!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><IMG
id=_x0000_i1028 height=181 src="cid:515585701@06012009-08f5"
width=148><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>george w.
kennie<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday,
January 05, 2009 5:41 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> cahochhalter@yahoo.com;
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy
New Year</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chuck,
Jim,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The maneuver under
consideration is the 1/2 Reverse Cuban, not the Cuban and the question
that Jim seems to be wrestling with is the end point of the maneuver.
Aresti drawings of all maneuvers are drawn with a circle on the line of
flight indicating the starting point of the maneuver and a vertical
bar indicating the ending point of the maneuver. If you look at RCA-09 in
the rulebook you will find an Aresti outline of the Sportsman sequence.
You will also note that the 1/2 Reverse Cuban displays the end point of
the maneuver as being in line with the entry point ( minus the straight
entry line ). The originator of the drawing appears to have gotten the
Aresti's correct, but has been remiss in displaying the exit lines on most
maneuvers. If the maneuver was complete when the 5/8 looping segment
was complete then the vertical Aresti END BAR would have occurred at
that point. All the Aresti figures I can find display all turn-around
maneuvers as having their end-points coincidental with their starting
points.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As pointed out by Vicente in
RCA-19 there is a requirement for all maneuvers to start and end with a
straight horizontal line. In the absence of a line, in either case, there
is a 2 point deduction. While it's true that the length is not
delineated, that wasn't always the case. Just another example of the
dillution of long established protocols by well meaning individuals intent
on making things better.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The judging committee has
informed me on more than one occasion that "ARESTI TAKES PRECEDENCE
!!!" I would counter, "the implementation of the axiom should be
paramount !"</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">G.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cahochhalter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:cahochhalter@yahoo.com">Charles Hochhalter</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Monday, January 05, 2009 1:01 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">George,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I am going to have to agree with Jim on
this one, the maneuver is complete in regards to the cuban eight
when the plane returns to level flight. There is no line
segment required to complete the
maneuver.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Chuck<BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 1/5/09, J N Hiller <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">From: J N Hiller <<A
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year<BR>To: "<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday,
January 5, 2009, 2:28 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=yiv1643954938>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George
I'm back.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I
was hoping someone would advance the discussion regarding the
finish point of the reverse cuban eight being equal to it's
start. Since no one has I can't sit back and watch. Sorry but I
disagree. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Somebody
please correct me if I am wrong but as I remember from previous
judging seminars 'all maneuvers start from and finish with
straight and level flight' (upright or inverted). This leads me
to believe maneuvers start and stop when they deviate from
S&L flight in either roll or pitch and do not include either
a lead in or exit line segment.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As
you know, Aresti figures are a universal / international
language used by IAC competitors. They are often displayed on
their instrument panels as a sequence quick reference guide. If
we were to try to fly each figure as drawn most turnarounds
would need an altitude change with some having strange angles.
If all turnaround maneuvers finished or started with their
widest part, either entering or exiting something like the
reverse humpty which is 3 radiuses wide, if flown on line, would
need to include an exit line equal to 2 radiuses in length. I
don't think so!</SPAN></FONT></SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The
attached word document contains figure descriptions from the IAC
and AMA web sites. They all describe the maneuver as starting or
ending with the looping segments with no mention of a lead-in or
exit line. It appears to me that the Aresti drawings are for
reference only and not to be used as a required flight
path.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I
expect this will come up in our judging seminar and I will fly
and judge it however <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Gary</st1:place></st1:City> says.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>J N
Hiller<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Friday, January 02, 2009 10:30 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George
don't worry about me being ostracized I spent the bulk of my
working life pointing out details to coworkers, managers and
consultants who were generally unaware or disinterested. The
consultants were fun, it didn't take long to overload them and I
outlasted most of the managers.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The
devil is always in a seemingly unending string of details.
During my years in management, writing 'How It <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Work</st1:PersonName>s' documents filled with detail,
I found most folks were overwhelmed if exposed to all of it but
it was necessary reference material.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Most
management meetings were filled with discussions exposing
details and the relative importance to the individuals
concerned. It was always enlightening.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I
guess what I am trying to say is that highly detailed rule books
like highly detailed SOP manuals can become so overwhelming that
they become dust collectors. Kind of like the snap roll
discussions where too much equals nothing. Yes it's time to dump
a lot of old e-mail. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm
one of those strange individuals that fly pattern or IMAC for
the challenge and self-satisfaction and yes I judge my flying
but I don't question the scores awarded. We all see it a little
differently and there is always room for improvement but before
the NSRCA judging clarification guidelines and training, score
sheets could be 'interesting'.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Anyway
thanks for enlightening me regarding the finishing point of the
half reverse cuban. I thought the maneuver separation line
started upon completion of the partial loop. Something else to
watch for when judging! </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes
I read all your postings and responses.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
class=emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>george w.
kennie<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Friday, January 02, 2009 6:50 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim,</SPAN></FONT>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'M A
NOBODY !!!!!!!!!!!! If you fall into the trap of
taking anything I say as Gospel you may be opening yourself up
to opposition and ostricism, so be forewarned.</SPAN></FONT>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
reason for dealing with the clover was to establish some sense
of what size to make the loops. As you can see, when you clearly
understand the geometry, the required size becomes a
dictate. It's all in the details, Jim. Some
people feel that I'm over detail oriented, but unless you
understand the details you can't effectively perform OR judge
the maneuver accurately. I inadvertently abdicated my own
mantra by loosely referring to the looping portion of the clover
as loops, when they're 3/4 loops. My bad. You sound like
you have a good handle on the clover. I would add that you
further concentrate on making sure the vertical up and down
lines are dead-on superimpositionally.</SPAN></FONT>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also
agree with the floor to ceiling approach as I'm constantly
telling new guys that I work with to "make it bigger."
Adding to that the requirement to maintain maneuver to maneuver
relative size relationships, which addresses your question
regarding the Sportsman's Cobra. Ya can't have a
mini-Reverse and a gigandi Cobra. I'm glad you referenced that
problem as it's a prime example of what I was talking about in
my discussion on "maneuver end-points." I think I remember
a lot of agreement in previous discussions about the problem
resulting in the conclusion that maneuver # 3 and # 8 needed to
be switched to alleviate the cramping issue. I even thought this
to be a viable solution at the time, that is, 'til you brought
it up and then I realized that I was missing my own
point. There is no size difference between the 1/2 Cuban
and the 1/2 Reverse Cuban. That Reverse doesn't end until you
get all the way back to the beginning of the ENTRY line.
CHECK THE ARESTI ! So, you see there is no advantage
either way. What was probably needed was something like a
Humpty.</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regarding
the roll rate issue. I'm glad that Matt referenced that as I was
going to offer the three rolls in 5 seconds, but refrained
as it's too vague and would be quickly challenged. The 3
second rule on the Slow is a minimum value with no maximum
indicated. It should be pretty obvious that there should be a
visually discernable differential between the two and becomes
somewhat subjective. This 1.67 second interval for the standard
roll being established as a maximum value would quickly come
under attack I'm sure. I don't know how the legislative process
could be achieved on that one.</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
feeling, and it's only a feeling on the Cuban with 2
of 4 is similar to my stand on the triangle with the roll across
the top i.e. presentable centering. I like to see a
clearly defined line before and after the rolling element and
would prefer to see the roll consume less of the overall
downline area than the two straight-line segments, but that's
just ME. I confess that I would not like to see a
standard rate that's so fast that I can't keep up to the
required corrections.</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'd
also like to thank you for your feedback. I wasn't sure
anyone would read the whole diatribe.</SPAN></FONT>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Georgie
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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