<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV><BR>George, point well made but then would the ratio of the size of the loop to the line in the aresti determine the size of the maneuver?</DIV>
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<DIV>I agree there is no clear answer here... in the regular cuban, where does the judging begin?</DIV>
<DIV>Should we be judging the maneuver well before the beginning of the 5/8 loop segment because that is where the aresti dot begins.</DIV>
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<DIV>I read the aresti as a representation of how the maneuver should be flown but the rules state that it is complete once the plane has established a "line" or arc as some exits are left short or over pulled.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chuck<BR>--- On <B>Mon, 1/5/09, george w. kennie <I><geobet@gis.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: george w. kennie <geobet@gis.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year<BR>To: cahochhalter@yahoo.com, "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:40 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chuck, Jim,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The maneuver under consideration is the 1/2 Reverse Cuban, not the Cuban and the question that Jim seems to be wrestling with is the end point of the maneuver. Aresti drawings of all maneuvers are drawn with a circle on the line of flight indicating the starting point of the maneuver and a vertical bar indicating the ending point of the maneuver. If you look at RCA-09 in the rulebook you will find an Aresti outline of the Sportsman sequence. You will also note that the 1/2 Reverse Cuban displays the end point of the maneuver as being in line with the entry point ( minus the straight entry line ). The originator of the drawing appears to have gotten the Aresti's correct, but has been remiss in displaying the exit lines on most maneuvers. If the maneuver was complete when the 5/8 looping segment was complete then the vertical Aresti END BAR would have occurred at that point. All the Aresti figures I can find
display all turn-around maneuvers as having their end-points coincidental with their starting points.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As pointed out by Vicente in RCA-19 there is a requirement for all maneuvers to start and end with a straight horizontal line. In the absence of a line, in either case, there is a 2 point deduction. While it's true that the length is not delineated, that wasn't always the case. Just another example of the dillution of long established protocols by well meaning individuals intent on making things better.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The judging committee has informed me on more than one occasion that "ARESTI TAKES PRECEDENCE !!!" I would counter, "the implementation of the axiom should be paramount !"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=cahochhalter@yahoo.com href="mailto:cahochhalter@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>Charles Hochhalter</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 1:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</DIV>
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<DIV>George,</DIV>
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<DIV>I am going to have to agree with Jim on this one, the maneuver is complete in regards to the cuban eight when the plane returns to level flight. There is no line segment required to complete the maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chuck<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 1/5/09, J N Hiller <I><<A href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: J N Hiller <<A href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:28 AM<BR><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George I'm back.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I was hoping someone would advance the discussion regarding the finish point of the reverse cuban eight being equal to it's start. Since no one has I can't sit back and watch. Sorry but I disagree. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but as I remember from previous judging seminars 'all maneuvers start from and finish with straight and level flight' (upright or inverted). This leads me to believe maneuvers start and stop when they deviate from S&L flight in either roll or pitch and do not include either a lead in or exit line segment.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As you know, Aresti figures are a universal / international language used by IAC competitors. They are often displayed on their instrument panels as a sequence quick reference guide. If we were to try to fly each figure as drawn most turnarounds would need an altitude change with some having strange angles. If all turnaround maneuvers finished or started with their widest part, either entering or exiting something like the reverse humpty which is 3 radiuses wide, if flown on line, would need to include an exit line equal to 2 radiuses in length. I don't think so!</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The attached word document contains figure descriptions from the IAC and AMA web sites. They all describe the maneuver as starting or ending with the looping segments with no mention of a lead-in or exit line. It appears to me that the Aresti drawings are for reference only and not to be used as a required flight path.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I expect this will come up in our judging seminar and I will fly and judge it however Gary says.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>J N Hiller<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 02, 2009 10:30 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George don't worry about me being ostracized I spent the bulk of my working life pointing out details to coworkers, managers and consultants who were generally unaware or disinterested. The consultants were fun, it didn't take long to overload them and I outlasted most of the managers. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The devil is always in a seemingly unending string of details. During my years in management, writing 'How It Works' documents filled with detail, I found most folks were overwhelmed if exposed to all of it but it was necessary reference material. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Most management meetings were filled with discussions exposing details and the relative importance to the individuals concerned. It was always enlightening. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I guess what I am trying to say is that highly detailed rule books like highly detailed SOP manuals can become so overwhelming that they become dust collectors. Kind of like the snap roll discussions where too much equals nothing. Yes it's time to dump a lot of old e-mail. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm one of those strange individuals that fly pattern or IMAC for the challenge and self-satisfaction and yes I judge my flying but I don't question the scores awarded. We all see it a little differently and there is always room for improvement but before the NSRCA judging clarification guidelines and training, score sheets could be 'interesting'. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Anyway thanks for enlightening me regarding the finishing point of the half reverse cuban. I thought the maneuver separation line started upon completion of the partial loop. Something else to watch for when judging! </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes I read all your postings and responses.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>george w. kennie<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 02, 2009 6:50 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim,</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'M A NOBODY !!!!!!!!!!!! If you fall into the trap of taking anything I say as Gospel you may be opening yourself up to opposition and ostricism, so be forewarned.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My reason for dealing with the clover was to establish some sense of what size to make the loops. As you can see, when you clearly understand the geometry, the required size becomes a dictate. It's all in the details, Jim. Some people feel that I'm over detail oriented, but unless you understand the details you can't effectively perform OR judge the maneuver accurately. I inadvertently abdicated my own mantra by loosely referring to the looping portion of the clover as loops, when they're 3/4 loops. My bad. You sound like you have a good handle on the clover. I would add that you further concentrate on making sure the vertical up and down lines are dead-on superimpositionally.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also agree with the floor to ceiling approach as I'm constantly telling new guys that I work with to "make it bigger." Adding to that the requirement to maintain maneuver to maneuver relative size relationships, which addresses your question regarding the Sportsman's Cobra. Ya can't have a mini-Reverse and a gigandi Cobra. I'm glad you referenced that problem as it's a prime example of what I was talking about in my discussion on "maneuver end-points." I think I remember a lot of agreement in previous discussions about the problem resulting in the conclusion that maneuver # 3 and # 8 needed to be switched to alleviate the cramping issue. I even thought this to be a viable solution at the time, that is, 'til you brought it up and then I realized that I was missing my own
point. There is no size difference between the 1/2 Cuban and the 1/2 Reverse Cuban. That Reverse doesn't end until you get all the way back to the beginning of the ENTRY line. CHECK THE ARESTI ! So, you see there is no advantage either way. What was probably needed was something like a Humpty.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regarding the roll rate issue. I'm glad that Matt referenced that as I was going to offer the three rolls in 5 seconds, but refrained as it's too vague and would be quickly challenged. The 3 second rule on the Slow is a minimum value with no maximum indicated. It should be pretty obvious that there should be a visually discernable differential between the two and becomes somewhat subjective. This 1.67 second interval for the standard roll being established as a maximum value would quickly come under attack I'm sure. I don't know how the legislative process could be achieved on that one.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My feeling, and it's only a feeling on the Cuban with 2 of 4 is similar to my stand on the triangle with the roll across the top i.e. presentable centering. I like to see a clearly defined line before and after the rolling element and would prefer to see the roll consume less of the overall downline area than the two straight-line segments, but that's just ME. I confess that I would not like to see a standard rate that's so fast that I can't keep up to the required corrections.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'd also like to thank you for your feedback. I wasn't sure anyone would read the whole diatribe.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Georgie </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT>
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