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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>George I'm back.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I was hoping someone would advance the discussion
regarding the finish point of the reverse cuban eight being equal to it's
start. Since no one has I can't sit back and watch. Sorry but I disagree. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but as I
remember from previous judging seminars 'all maneuvers start from and finish
with straight and level flight' (upright or inverted). This leads me to believe
maneuvers start and stop when they deviate from S&L flight in either roll
or pitch and do not include either a lead in or exit line segment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As you know, Aresti figures are a universal /
international language used by IAC competitors. They are often displayed on
their instrument panels as a sequence quick reference guide. If we were to try
to fly each figure as drawn most turnarounds would need an altitude change with
some having strange angles. If all turnaround maneuvers finished or started
with their widest part, either entering or exiting something like the reverse
humpty which is 3 radiuses wide, if flown on line, would need to include an
exit line equal to 2 radiuses in length. I don't think so!<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The attached word document contains figure
descriptions from the IAC and AMA web sites. They all describe the maneuver as
starting or ending with the looping segments with no mention of a lead-in or
exit line. It appears to me that the Aresti drawings are for reference only and
not to be used as a required flight path.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I expect this will come up in our judging seminar and
I will fly and judge it however Gary says.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle23><font
size=2 color="#003300" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle22><font size=2 color="#003300"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>J N Hiller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, January 02, 2009
10:30 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Happy New Year</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>George don't worry about me being ostracized I spent
the bulk of my working life pointing out details to coworkers, managers and
consultants who were generally unaware or disinterested. The consultants were
fun, it didn't take long to overload them and I outlasted most of the managers.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The devil is always in a seemingly unending string of
details. During my years in management, writing 'How It Works' documents filled
with detail, I found most folks were overwhelmed if exposed to all of it but it
was necessary reference material. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Most management meetings were filled with discussions
exposing details and the relative importance to the individuals concerned. It
was always enlightening. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I guess what I am trying to say is that highly
detailed rule books like highly detailed SOP manuals can become so overwhelming
that they become dust collectors. Kind of like the snap roll discussions where
too much equals nothing. Yes it's time to dump a lot of old e-mail. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I'm one of those strange individuals that fly pattern
or IMAC for the challenge and self-satisfaction and yes I judge my flying but I
don't question the scores awarded. We all see it a little differently and there
is always room for improvement but before the NSRCA judging clarification
guidelines and training, score sheets could be 'interesting'. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Anyway thanks for enlightening me regarding the
finishing point of the half reverse cuban. I thought the maneuver separation
line started upon completion of the partial loop. Something else to watch for
when judging! <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Yes I read all your postings and responses.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle21><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>george w. kennie<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, January 02, 2009
6:50 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Happy New Year</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jim,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I'M A
NOBODY !!!!!!!!!!!! If you fall into the trap of taking anything I
say as Gospel you may be opening yourself up to opposition and ostricism, so be
forewarned.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>My reason
for dealing with the clover was to establish some sense of what size to make
the loops. As you can see, when you clearly understand the geometry, the
required size becomes a dictate. It's all in the details,
Jim. Some people feel that I'm over detail oriented, but unless you understand
the details you can't effectively perform OR judge the maneuver
accurately. I inadvertently abdicated my own mantra by loosely referring
to the looping portion of the clover as loops, when they're 3/4 loops. My
bad. You sound like you have a good handle on the clover. I would
add that you further concentrate on making sure the vertical up and down lines
are dead-on superimpositionally.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I also
agree with the floor to ceiling approach as I'm constantly telling new guys
that I work with to "make it bigger." Adding to that the
requirement to maintain maneuver to maneuver relative size relationships, which
addresses your question regarding the Sportsman's Cobra. Ya can't have a
mini-Reverse and a gigandi Cobra. I'm glad you referenced that problem as it's
a prime example of what I was talking about in my discussion on "maneuver
end-points." I think I remember a lot of agreement in previous
discussions about the problem resulting in the conclusion that maneuver # 3 and
# 8 needed to be switched to alleviate the cramping issue. I even thought this
to be a viable solution at the time, that is, 'til you brought it up and
then I realized that I was missing my own point. There is no size
difference between the 1/2 Cuban and the 1/2 Reverse Cuban. That Reverse
doesn't end until you get all the way back to the beginning of the ENTRY
line. CHECK THE ARESTI ! So, you see there is no advantage
either way. What was probably needed was something like a Humpty.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Regarding
the roll rate issue. I'm glad that Matt referenced that as I was going to offer
the three rolls in 5 seconds, but refrained as it's too vague and would be
quickly challenged. The 3 second rule on the Slow is a minimum value with
no maximum indicated. It should be pretty obvious that there should be a
visually discernable differential between the two and becomes somewhat
subjective. This 1.67 second interval for the standard roll being established
as a maximum value would quickly come under attack I'm sure. I don't know how
the legislative process could be achieved on that one.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>My
feeling, and it's only a feeling on the Cuban with 2 of 4 is similar
to my stand on the triangle with the roll across the top i.e. presentable
centering. I like to see a clearly defined line before and after the
rolling element and would prefer to see the roll consume less of the overall
downline area than the two straight-line segments, but that's
just ME. I confess that I would not like to see a standard rate
that's so fast that I can't keep up to the required corrections.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I'd
also like to thank you for your feedback. I wasn't sure anyone would read
the whole diatribe.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Georgie
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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