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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>One maneuver in Sportsman, goes counter to all other
turnaround figures of which I know. The Half Reverse Cuban should be
entered/exited at the same altitude. I know it's IMHO silly to have
different criteria for the same maneuver, but there it is. Particularly to
have that requirement in sportsman, but there it is. I can quote the
"authority" of the day, if necessary.</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 3:04
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New
Year</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>You are correct, Jim.... for both AMA and
FAI.<BR><BR>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
From: <A
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:cahochhalter@yahoo.com">cahochhalter@yahoo.com</A>; <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date:
Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:23:51 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New
Year<BR><BR>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_EmailStyle123><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">With respect to
pattern it's my understand that all turnaround maneuvers except the sportsman,
straight flight out / stall turn / straight flight back, can be used to adjust
altitude.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_EmailStyle123><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_EmailStyle123><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Charles
Hochhalter<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday,
January 05, 2009 9:59 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Happy New
Year</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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width=578 border=0>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">If I read it
correctly about any turnaround maneuver is considered as an altitude
adjusting maneuver.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Love these
discussions... sometimes nervous to speak up and prove you are wrong
rather than participate and learn... hehhehe</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Chuck<BR><BR>---
On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 1/5/09, billglaze <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><billglaze@bellsouth.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">From:
billglaze <billglaze@bellsouth.net><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year<BR>To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, January 5,
2009, 5:50 PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">
<DIV id=EC_yiv271030537>Interesting if one takes the verbatim
descriptions. It would seem that on the Half Cuban an altitude
change on finishing is permitted, because it is specifically
mentioned. Such mention is missing on the Reverse
Cuban.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> <BR>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=inherit color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Any
significance?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 7.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 7.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=jnhiller@earthlink.net href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"
rel=nofollow>J N Hiller</A> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 7.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow>General
pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 7.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Sunday,
January 04, 2009 9:28 PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 7.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=inherit color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George I'm
back.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I was hoping
someone would advance the discussion regarding the finish point of the
reverse cuban eight being equal to it's start. Since no one has I can't
sit back and watch. Sorry but I disagree. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Somebody
please correct me if I am wrong but as I remember from previous judging
seminars 'all maneuvers start from and finish with straight and level
flight' (upright or inverted). This leads me to believe maneuvers start
and stop when they deviate from S&L flight in either roll or pitch
and do not include either a lead in or exit line
segment.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As you know,
Aresti figures are a universal / international language used by IAC
competitors. They are often displayed on their instrument panels as a
sequence quick reference guide. If we were to try to fly each figure as
drawn most turnarounds would need an altitude change with some having
strange angles. If all turnaround maneuvers finished or started with
their widest part, either entering or exiting something like the reverse
humpty which is 3 radiuses wide, if flown on line, would need to include
an exit line equal to 2 radiuses in length. I don't think
so!</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The attached
word document contains figure descriptions from the IAC and AMA web
sites. They all describe the maneuver as starting or ending with the
looping segments with no mention of a lead-in or exit line. It appears
to me that the Aresti drawings are for reference only and not to be used
as a required flight path.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I expect
this will come up in our judging seminar and I will fly and judge it
however Gary says.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle23><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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class=EC_emailstyle22><FONT face=Arial color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #003300; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>J N Hiller<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 02, 2009
10:30 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George don't
worry about me being ostracized I spent the bulk of my working life
pointing out details to coworkers, managers and consultants who were
generally unaware or disinterested. The consultants were fun, it didn't
take long to overload them and I outlasted most of the managers.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The devil is
always in a seemingly unending string of details. During my years in
management, writing 'How It Works' documents filled with detail, I found
most folks were overwhelmed if exposed to all of it but it was necessary
reference material. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Most
management meetings were filled with discussions exposing details and
the relative importance to the individuals concerned. It was always
enlightening. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I guess what
I am trying to say is that highly detailed rule books like highly
detailed SOP manuals can become so overwhelming that they become dust
collectors. Kind of like the snap roll discussions where too much equals
nothing. Yes it's time to dump a lot of old e-mail.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm one of
those strange individuals that fly pattern or IMAC for the challenge and
self-satisfaction and yes I judge my flying but I don't question the
scores awarded. We all see it a little differently and there is always
room for improvement but before the NSRCA judging clarification
guidelines and training, score sheets could be 'interesting'.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Anyway
thanks for enlightening me regarding the finishing point of the half
reverse cuban. I thought the maneuver separation line started upon
completion of the partial loop. Something else to watch for when
judging! </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><SPAN
class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes I read
all your postings and responses.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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class=EC_emailstyle21><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #993366; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>george w.
kennie<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday,
January 02, 2009 6:50 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Happy New Year</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'M A NOBODY
!!!!!!!!!!!! If you fall into the trap of taking anything I
say as Gospel you may be opening yourself up to opposition and
ostricism, so be forewarned.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My reason for
dealing with the clover was to establish some sense of what size to make
the loops. As you can see, when you clearly understand the geometry, the
required size becomes a dictate. It's all in the
details, Jim. Some people feel that I'm over detail oriented, but unless
you understand the details you can't effectively perform OR judge the
maneuver accurately. I inadvertently abdicated my own mantra by
loosely referring to the looping portion of the clover as loops, when
they're 3/4 loops. My bad. You sound like you have a good
handle on the clover. I would add that you further concentrate on making
sure the vertical up and down lines are dead-on
superimpositionally.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also agree
with the floor to ceiling approach as I'm constantly telling new guys
that I work with to "make it bigger." Adding to that the
requirement to maintain maneuver to maneuver relative size
relationships, which addresses your question regarding the Sportsman's
Cobra. Ya can't have a mini-Reverse and a gigandi Cobra. I'm glad
you referenced that problem as it's a prime example of what I was
talking about in my discussion on "maneuver end-points." I think I
remember a lot of agreement in previous discussions about the problem
resulting in the conclusion that maneuver # 3 and # 8 needed to be
switched to alleviate the cramping issue. I even thought this to be a
viable solution at the time, that is, 'til you brought it up and
then I realized that I was missing my own point. There is no
size difference between the 1/2 Cuban and the 1/2 Reverse Cuban. That
Reverse doesn't end until you get all the way back to the beginning of
the ENTRY line. CHECK THE ARESTI ! So, you see there is
no advantage either way. What was probably needed was something like a
Humpty.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regarding the
roll rate issue. I'm glad that Matt referenced that as I was going to
offer the three rolls in 5 seconds, but refrained as it's too vague
and would be quickly challenged. The 3 second rule on the Slow is
a minimum value with no maximum indicated. It should be pretty obvious
that there should be a visually discernable differential between the two
and becomes somewhat subjective. This 1.67 second interval for the
standard roll being established as a maximum value would quickly come
under attack I'm sure. I don't know how the legislative process could be
achieved on that one.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My feeling,
and it's only a feeling on the Cuban with 2 of 4 is similar to
my stand on the triangle with the roll across the top i.e. presentable
centering. I like to see a clearly defined line before and
after the rolling element and would prefer to see the roll consume less
of the overall downline area than the two straight-line segments, but
that's just ME. I confess that I would not like to see a
standard rate that's so fast that I can't keep up to the required
corrections.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 79.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'd also like
to thank you for your feedback. I wasn't sure anyone would read
the whole diatribe.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Georgie
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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