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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi George
this is Jim Hiller. Thank you for bringing these issues to my attention. OH
happy New Year to you as well. I am waiting for it to stop snowing so I can get
my daily exercise. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I don't
fly FAI but I am called on occasionally to judge it. Although not on of my
favorite activities I do try to get it right and a consensuses of is necessary
or we are back to local judging rules interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A agree
with you on the hesitation rolls. I believe that a 2 of 2 or 2 of 4 roll consists
of three elements not four (1/4 roll, line, 1/4 roll) wherever it is done rather
it is in a combination maneuver or not. It's been a while since I looked at the
rules but when a point roll is combined with a snap or aileron roll the two
need to be together without a noticeable line between them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I really appreciate
the enlightenment regarding the half clover, which I now need to fly. Great,
center the horizontal crossover on the vertical 2 of 4 up and half roll down. In
contrast to the above the rolling elements need to be centered on a line
requiring a discernable line before and after of equal length, the length of
which will need to equal two radiuses (1/2 height). The size of this first master's
class maneuver will establish the floor and ceiling lines. I expect this will
be addressed in the judging seminar this spring. In any case it gives me
something to strive for.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The sequence
layout and turnaround altitude change kind of run to gather. In helping a new
pattern flier through the sportsman sequence there was a consistent problem
centering the Cobra after the Half Cuban Eight. Both of these maneuvers are sized
'floor to ceiling' (best presentation) a lot of horizontal length is needed
placing the airplane beyond a Sportsman's visibility / ability limit. Re-enter
the box high and flying a small radius Cuban, a low exit exiting resulted due
to the '45 line, half roll, 45 line' length but it finished closer to the box
end allowing a less rushed entry into the Cobra. Should this altitude allowance
be continued and or used for convenience? I don't know! If the Cobra had been
preceded with a Half Reverse Cuban there would have been plenty of room to
enter a nice size Cobra.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Roll
rates! I too am bugged by roll rates especially slow roll rates used in
hesitation rolls, as if the pilot is sneaking up on the point rather than
hitting it, often without a discernible hesitation between them. As for slow
v/s aileron rolls, the 3-second rule may not be very appropriate in turnaround
style aerobatic presentation. For best presentation the line length consumed
would be a better measure, such as 1/2 box width for a slow roll and maybe 1/8
box width for an aileron roll. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Just
another opinion!<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>george w. kennie<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 01, 2009
10:40 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion] Happy
New Year</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>To all
you guys who monitor this list, I not only want to wish you all a wonderful New
Year, but I wish to convey to each how this terrific interaction that we enjoy
on this medium has made my life far more interesting and fulfilled and
rewarding because of your participation in the process. We may not all share
the same viewpoints, but the exposure to various understandings is always
enlightening and of value.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This
may not be your experience and I can respect that, so you may not be interested
in what follows and that's O.K., but I kinda made a promise to Tom Miller at
last years Nats that I would attempt to address a couple of issues that came up
during a somewhat passionate discussion that took place in the Gazebo on Sunday
evening regarding a couple of rules interpretations. Please understand that the
viewpoints expressed here by me are purely my opinions and the reasoning behind
those conclusions and any corrections to my erroneous offerings will be
welcomed. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The
first point that was put forth by my worthy adversary was in regard to
Hesitation Rolls. In his understanding, he submitted that a point in a
point roll included the hesitation and therefore the first maneuver in P-09,
the Double Immelman with 2 of 4 points first, must be flown with a
space after the second point in order to fulfill the requirement of his
interpretation of the maneuver.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This is
in total opposition to what the rulebook states. I'm here to tell you that the
POINT and the HESITATION are TWO separate and distinct entities. How do I
know that? Think about it for a second. What do you do in a verticle up-line
with 2 of 4? Do you include the hesitation portion of the roll in the line? If you
did and you treated this as ONE element and you centered that element in
the line, then the roll portion would occur significantly off center toward the
bottom of the line ! </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This is
further supported by the rulebook in 5B.4.3.7. where it states, "the
half roll, snap roll, POINT ROLL, or full roll should be performed
IMMEDIATELY after or before the half loop as required by the particular
maneuver. A VISIBLE LINE IN BETWEEN THE TWO COMPONENTS MUST DOWNGRADE THE
MANEUVER BY 2 POINTS. This action can only occur if the POINT and the
HESITATION are treated as two separate and distinct elements.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This
error in thinking extended to his proposal that the center of a 4 point roll
was NOT the center of the inverted portion of the roll, but the
beginning of the third point. If you are tempted to agree with this
proposal I would recommend that you draw out the maneuver displaying all
of the individual elements inclucing the entry and exit lines, assigning
similar inch values to each element and you will quickly see that the center is
indeed the center of the inverted portion of the roll.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>All
this stuff came from a guy who was a former World Champion and was agreed
to by another top 5 calibre individual who was in attendance at this small
gathering and when I attempted to offer a different viewpoint I came under
a vehement verbal attack.What I had further difficulty with was the fact that
he was able to convince the head of the judging committee that he was right and
the ruling went in his favor to the degree that it was announced at the pilot's
meeting that the maneuver would be flown with the hesitation before the
commencement of the loop. On the first day of competition he himself flew the
maneuver WITHOUT the hesitation. I couldn't help wondering to myself if he did
it all in an effort to sabotage the competition. My other conclusion has
to be, " just because you possess fabulous flying skills (and this guy
really IS fabulous, I thought he won the last round of F ) doesn't mean
you can read English and understand what is being
inferred." As you can tell, I'm sure, .....I'm doing a
little venting here. I'm too easily frustrated. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>O.K.
...........next item. Half Clover ! A couple of years before
this, the same individual raised some questions regarding the clover
execution. I had been doing this maneuver incorrectly in my practice sessions
and his questions, were valuable to me because they really made me think
! When I expressed my opinions regarding proper execution of this
maneuver to ANOTHER top flyer I was informed that my basis was faulty. In
subsequent thinking sessions I haven't been able to reverse my conclusions. My
contention is that this is indeed a HALF clover. Why would it be otherwise?
Some individuals in the judging fraternity tell me " You're getting too
caught up in the NAME of the maneuver." Well why did they give it
that name if that's not what it is. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>O.K.,
It <u> IS</u> one half of a clover. Therefore the
correct way to perform the figure is to visualize a FULL clover in your mind
and then perform the top two loops relative to those proportions ( if it's
upright ). If there's a roll on the upline, then the point of the roll should
occur at a point correspondent with altitudinal point of intersection between
the upper and imaginary lower loops. Now what I had been doing wrong was to do
two loops at the top of a long vertical up-line that were sized way too small
for what a full clover should have looked like, had one been built on my
baseline, and the loops were significantly above the rollpoint. Make 'em bigger
guys and bottom out on the center of the roll and it will score big. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Next:
Maneuver end points. Refer to your Aresti drawings and look for that
vertical bar that indicates the correct end-point of questionable maneuvers. A
couple of years ago there was a Reverse Cuban from the top that could not be
completed before center far enough to allow an exit line to be inserted before
the initiation of the subsequent maneuver. Quique asked in the judging
class if he could start the next maneuver before center because it had it's own
problems. After class I checked the Aresti and informed him of the problem
created by the sequence originator not allowing for the correct ending point of
the Cuban. He was grateful for the explanation and I was too as I had not
contemplated the discrepancy before either. All sequence originators need to be
mindful of all maneuver endpoints when trying to achieve a
free -flowing schedule.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>You
wont find this one in the book, but it's a pet peeve of mine and there are a
lot of people that feel otherwise. SLOW ROLL vs. ROLL
! There are multiple descriptors explaining the correct
execution of rolls whether they be normal speed rolls or slow rolls.
Maneuvers requiring slow rolls distinctly specify that the roll being called
for needs to exceed a 3 second duration. THIS IS A VERY SPECIFIC REQUEST
! In the absense of this request it is my opinion that a normal
speed roll is to be executed and should be required. A while back we had
a Triangle with a roll across the top. It did not say "ALL ACROSS"
the top nor did it say "at the pilot's discretion." It could be
deduced, by the judge, that if you do a slow roll across the top that you don't
want him to see your inability to properly center the normal speed roll and
this is your way of snow-balling him. Like I say,
NOT IN THE BOOK, but I read English ! Sorry.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>One
more: Turn Around altitude change. Jim Woodward will tell you
what a stickler I am for BASELINE, BASELINE, BASELINE
!!!!!!!!!!!!! You hear everyone stating the fact that it's O.K. to
enter a T.A. maneuver at one altitude and exit at another without
penalty. Well I don't know how or when this one got so discombobulated.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Originally
the intent of this rule was to accommodate an execution infraction and was
assigned a penalty to be assessed to either the current maneuver or the
subsequent maneuver. For some reason guys started reading this rule to
mean "it's O.K. to change altitude on T.A. maneuvers without reading the
penalty part and with subsequent re-prints of the rule book that part was
dropped. I hate when that happens !!!!!!!!!!!! </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Despite
the sound of all this, I really AM having an O.K. day and offer it up for your
perusal. Just don't over-react please.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Remember,
I love you guys.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Georgie</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I am using
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