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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>IMPOSSIBLE!! The key to the double weedon
was never being able to do it EXACTLY the same way twice. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Michael Cohen<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 06, 2008
7:22 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Have we lost our way? (Sorry, George, but your question inspired this)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>They can't beat me at a Double
Weedon, I have that one mastered better than the originator!<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:44:39
-0700<br>
From: jpavlick@idseng.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Have we lost our way? (Sorry, George, but your
question inspired this)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I'm just sitting here flying Pattern in my easy chair (I
have Aerofly Pro on my laptop)...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>In reality, I bet if you ask Jason, Andrew, Brett,
Dave L. or anybody at that level, how much they use the magic bells and
whistles in the radio versus how much they do with their fingers, you'd
probably be surprised. I bet you could hand any of these guys an
analog transmitter and they'd still out fly you. No matter how much money you
spend. :)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Earl Haury
<ejhaury@comcast.net></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Overall - pattern is alive and well. Jeremy makes numerous
good points, but I believe technology is more the life of pattern than the
demise. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Don Dewey published an article in the old RCM magazine in
the early '70's predicting that with "modern" radios soon a pattern
flier would press a couple of buttons and the model would execute a perfect
pattern - all from the comfort of one's easy chair - a "skyport"
would open in the roof to allow viewing (no more flying fields required). Of
course this was nonsense then and still is. There are way to many variable
forces acting on an airplane to automate any given maneuver for repeatable
execution. There are closed loop systems that might be able to handle the task
- but they're already outside the rules for obvious reasons.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>OTOH - I suspect a lot of us are attracted to pattern for
the technological challenge as much as for aerobatics. Our equipment is tons
better than it was years ago and the sequences have advanced to take advantage.
Electronic "gadgets" as mixes, conditions, rates, expo, etc. are
tools that us technophobes (and mere mortals) try to use to gain a little on
the talented. Take away the technology and the elite become more separated from
us mortals!</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I would say that anyone who yearns for the days of yore
should consider CL Stunt - but good grief - some of those guys are flying E! At
least the sequence hasn't changed in 50+ years - egads, I'd find that boring!</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Earl</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:lagrue@hotmail.com" title="lagrue@hotmail.com">JEREMY CHINN</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday, August
06, 2008 9:18 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Have we lost our way? (Sorry, George, but your question
inspired this)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Helv><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helv'>I won't pretend like I have enough
experience to comment on the effects of what you mentioned in Pattern, however
I've been part of competition for a long time and within many different realms,
model aviation and other..... <br>
<br>
The same thing happens in almost every sport. The sport is created,
technological innovation happens, at some point, someone screams uncle because
the amount of innovation has gone past their comfort level. Everyone has their
own comfort level, so usually rules creation takes place when enough of the
collective group is beyond their comfort level with the particular issue at
hand to force them to make up a rule to combat that issue... <br>
<br>
Formula One auto racing had traction control and ABS to deal with. <br>
Mountain biking went from unsuspended bikes to fully suspended bikes.<br>
Olympic track cycling had aerodynamic bikes (go read about Graham Obree to see
how the rules making can be detrimental to the sport)<br>
Bass fishing had to deal with electronic fish finders. <br>
<br>
Freeflight has computerized timers and actuation of the surfaces..... (is that
still freeflight?)<br>
Its pretty easy to say that any or all of those above are cheating. The flip
side of that says that someone had to take the time to figure those 'tools' out
and set them appropriately to get the job done. <br>
<br>
IMHO, what tends to differentiate the things above from the pilot actually
flying his bird is the idea that it's entirely possible for someone other than
the pilot can set up the tool or switch to do something that the pilot may not
be able to do. IE, Shulman moves the stick X% to do X maneuver, so my friend
programs that much deflection on the switch for me and Bang, I have a Shulman X
maneuver in my sequence. Yeah, I know that is an oversimplification, but I
think it makes the point. <br>
<br>
Have we lost our way? Nope.... Has our use of technology gone to far? Maybe,
Probably, Yes.<br>
<br>
BTW, at the next NATS, I'll be sitting off to the side and will use a
sophisticated recording device to snatch radio signals from the air. Following
the NATS, I will then be selling pre-formatted mixes for each of the maneuvers
in each sequence. This will come in CAMPAC and SD Card formats for Futaba
radios. To ensure the high zoot pattern nature of the product, I will only
record on carbonfiber molded memory which I will source at great cost directly
from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
Somenzini, Shulman, Jesky and Wickizer mixes will retail for about $400 ea. The
Chinn mixes will retail for $1.95 LOL! <br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:06:35
-0700<br>
From: homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Have we lost our way? (Sorry, George, but your
question inspired this)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Sillyness.. <img border=0 width=18 height=18 id="_x0000_i1027"
src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I use a dual rate switch for more throw for stall, spins and snaps. I
don't use a snap switch or a spin switch. I do use mixing. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You are saying I shouldn't be allowed to use a dual rate switch or a
mix to help my poorly designed plane to fly a little more like a better
designed plane that alot of us can't afford that takes less mix or could maybe
get away with none? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Sillyness Matt. <img border=0 width=18 height=18 id="_x0000_i1028"
src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Although, I'm not sure why people use a snap switch. In my opinion it's
so much easier to fly them with the sticks. They present better IMO. Take for
instance the 45 down, 1 1/2 snap. Using a switch I see people way steeper than
45 as they let off the switch. Why? Because the up ele is still held until the
last second. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Switches don't make you a top pilot. Practice and skill does.. If
people need em, I say use em. That's why they are there. For me, I'll stick
with just a single dual rate switch.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Sorry. Just my thoughts... <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Disclamer: These words are not to be used against
me in any way shape or form or a cloud will instantly form over you while
you are flying and you will get dumped on before you can put away your gear.
(Ruining your cell phone because it falls into a puddle)</span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Oh wait, that's what happened to us (D7) several times while practicing
at the nats.. lol<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><img border=0 width=18 height=18 id="_x0000_i1029"
src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf" face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF;font-weight:
bold'>Chris </span></font></i></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Matthew Frederick <mjfrederick@cox.net><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 8:19:10 PM<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Have we lost our way? (Sorry, George, but your
question inspired this)<br>
<br>
Call me crazy if you want, but I'm getting sick of all these
"conditions" <br>
being allowed in pattern. The whole point of what we do puts emphasis on the <br>
pilot being in control of the model at all times. It's one thing to flip a <br>
switch to enable higher rates for a snap, stall, slow roll, whatever. I <br>
think we're going too far with just pulling the stick past 90 degrees to <br>
instill a snap "condition" that will automatically perform a snap
roll with <br>
the programmed inputs. In the rules it states that you can't have a "timed"
<br>
switch, witch basically was put in to avoid people from programming a snap <br>
switch that gave the elevator a slight lead on all the other inputs. <br>
Allowing the elevator (or any other) stick to provide this same advantage is <br>
tantamount to cheating, it just happens to pass the current rules test. The <br>
more I hear about people putting these types of conditions that are merely <br>
contingent on stick position, the more I think it's coming time for a rules <br>
change to stop it. We're supposed to be better than this. I'm probably <br>
waaaay out on a limb by myself here, but from where I sit having started in <br>
pattern back in the late 80's, I think we're losing our way by allowing <br>
computers to perform operations that should be required by the pilots. I <br>
don't even believe in programmed mixes and avoid them like the plague.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
P.S. Before anyone who knows me asks, yes, I did fly a Genesis, and yes I <br>
did have elevator to rudder mix on that... hopefully my next plane won't <br>
suck like that... <br>
<br>
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