<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'>My radio says that to me once in a while.. <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif"><br><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><br><br>--- On <b>Tue, 7/1/08, Matthew Frederick <i><mjfrederick@cox.net></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: Matthew Frederick <mjfrederick@cox.net><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap Entry?<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 7:25 PM<br><br><div id="yiv1528931371">
<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I love the "only once" part of that. It brings up
memories of an old Chuck Yeager flight sim on computer... when you did anything
crazy you just got a little message at the bottom of the screen that said "Wings
sheared off"</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Matt</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="khoard@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">Keith Hoard</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:42
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap
Entry?</div>
<div><br></div>During initial training I was told stories about pilots that
would extend the flaps to 2 degrees at altitude to increase fuel efficiency,
but to do that you have to pull a couple circuit breakers to disable the
leading edge devices (LED's) which are limited by Boeing from being extended
above 20,000 feet. When you do this stunt, you are risking air pressure
getting up under the spoilers and causing them to float - thus negating what
you're trying to accomplish. Also, the elevator trim is controlled by
the autopilot at altitude . . . if you try to trim the nose up the autopilot
will kick itself off. I could see where an unbriefed pilot resetting the
LED circuit breakers at altitude could cause really hideous problems. . . but
I highly doubt the Split-S (with 2 of 4??) maneuver . . . more likely a 7.5 on
their Straight Flight Out followed by a Zero'd flight due to the LED's
departing the aircraft.<br><br>Besides, the flaps and trim have no effect on
the CG of the airplane. . . it is a function of how the plane is loaded and
the current fuel load - which by the way moves the CG forward during flight
unless your S/O does something really, really wrong on the fuel
panel. My company is currently trying to load the airplanes with
an aft CG for fuel efficiency.<br><br>Now, back to the original subject. . .
will a swept wing commercial transport aircraft perform a proper snap roll? .
. . . My vote is "only once". . .<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Gerald Gallagher <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:ggall@bellsouth.net">ggall@bellsouth.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I
was a pilot with TWA & knew the captain that is accused of this, also
a<br>TWA Pilot. To this day he denies this ever happened & so do the 2
other crew<br>members that were flying that 727. The loss of altitude was,
according to<br>the three crewmembers aboard was clear air turbulence. I
believe the pilot,<br>but I am prejudice.<br><br>Jerry
Gallagher<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>Sent: Tuesday,
July 01, 2008 5:47 PM<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap Entry?<br><br><br>A few of us were
discussing just such an occurence recently which<br>apparently happened by
accident and darned near crashed the plane. Dean<br>remembered the details
which went something like this:<br><br>The pilot of the 727 about 20 years
ago had the plane trimmed as far<br>aft as possible and had inputed a bit of
flap to use fuel most<br>efficiently. The co-pilot, soon after returning
from a visit to the<br>loo, saw the trimmed flap and flipped the switch to
return the flap to<br>neutral. This action immediately made the plane too
tail heavy which<br>made the plane do a pretty violent half snap to
inverted. The pilot<br>lost close to 25k feet pulling the plane out of the
dive, which he did<br>successfully but not before deploying the gear to slow
the crate down.<br>That had to be some kind of experience<br><br>Legend has
it that the pilot then went straight to loo himself to<br>change his
britches (G)<br><br>Matt<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Koenig,
Tom <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au</a>><br>To:
General pattern discussion <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Sent:
Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:25 pm<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap
Entry?<br><br> Hey John,<br><br>Out of interest.....has anyone ever
attempted a snap in an airliner???<br><br>I have heard of a captain doing a
slow roll in a 747....but a snap? Is it<br>possible?? What does a simulator
do when pushed to such limits ( I know a<br>simulator cant snap BTW...well,
I assume any way LOL!!)<br><br>Tom<br><br>-----Original
Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of John Gayer<br>Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2008 11:42 AM<br>To:
General pattern discussion<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
Entry<br><br>Actually a snap can occur without any aileron input...but I
challenge anyone<br>to show a pattern ship doing a snap roll on a 45 degree
downline without<br>ailerons.<br><br>The approach snap can occur with only
the use of elevator and it involves<br>one wing panel stalling before the
other. Try an approach with crossed<br>controls(aileron/rudder with some
power. pull the nose up gradually and see<br>which wing drops. It will be
the wing with the aileron trailing edge down.<br>This is contrary to what we
see in a pattern snap roll which always snaps in<br>the direction of the
aileron deflection thus indicating the lack of any<br>stalled
condition<br><br>John<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">seefo@san.rr.com</a> wrote:<br><br>>Just
to stir the pot a little further..<br>><br>>I'm not sure a
contemporary pattern plane can generate enough pitch<br>rate to reach
critical angle of attack and properly perform a snap roll. I<br>think it's
far more likely that we're seeing nothing but a heavily yawed<br>aileron
roll, with the pitch break only being shown to judges to convince<br>them
there is actually a stall happening, when in fact there is
not.<br>><br>>If a snap cannot occur using ONLY elevator and rudder,
then the wing is<br>not stalling. Aileron inputs into a snap actually
inhibit flow separation,<br>as the inboard wing angle of attack is
drastically reduced, and the outboard<br>wing AoA is drastically
increased.<br>><br>>But since there is no way to actually determine
what is happening<br>aerodynamically on an F3A airplane, the best a pilot
can do is fly the<br>airplane to what the judges expect to see based upon
the rules. It really<br>doesn't matter what the control inputs are if the
airplane LOOKS like it's<br>doing the right
maneuver.<br>>_______________________________________________<br>>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br>><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>><br>><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>Keith Hoard<br>Collierville, TN<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><br><br>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</blockquote></div><pre>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</pre></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>