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I had a DC-10 flight engineer instructor who used to say you can try <br>anything you want....once. If you are still alive after that, maybe you <br>can try it again. That was his way of strongly suggesting that you <br>might want to follow the flight manuals and not get creative on your own <br>inside a 400,000lb airplane. I will never forget his message.<br><br>Chris<br><br>John Konneker wrote:<br>> American Airlines....more like 30 years ago.<br>> Help me out here Chris.<br>> There was a supposed "step" the 727 could be flown on that would <br>> increase performance.<br>> Whoever was in the cockpit...first officer or captain...pulled the <br>> circuit breaker so that he could do whatever he<br>> did with the flaps or slats. When the other returned to cockpit he <br>> saw the breaker out and pushed it in.<br>> That's when whatever happened happened...plane went way beyond <br>> Vne...blew the leading edge devices off. Terrorized<br>> the passengers in the cabin...did a big split S or similar before <br>> control was regained.<br>> The story goes on that the cockpit crew erased the cockpit recorder <br>> so nobody really ever knew what happened.<br>> That's the version I heard anyway as told to me by Tom Street at the <br>> Mesquite, Texas contest way back in like '83.<br>> JLK<br>><br>>> To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:47:18 -0400<br>>> From: rcmaster199@aol.com<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap Entry?<br>>><br>>> A few of us were discussing just such an occurence recently which<br>>> apparently happened by accident and darned near crashed the plane. Dean<br>>> remembered the details which went something like this:<br>>><br>>> The pilot of the 727 about 20 years ago had the plane trimmed as far<br>>> aft as possible and had inputed a bit of flap to use fuel most<br>>> efficiently. The co-pilot, soon after returning from a visit to the<br>>> loo, saw the trimmed flap and flipped the switch to return the flap to<br>>> neutral. This action immediately made the plane too tail heavy which<br>>> made the plane do a pretty violent half snap to inverted. The pilot<br>>> lost close to 25k feet pulling the plane out of the dive, which he did<br>>> successfully but not before deploying the gear to slow the crate down.<br>>> That had to be some kind of experience<br>>><br>>> Legend has it that the pilot then went straight to loo himself to<br>>> change his britches (G)<br>>><br>>> Matt<br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: Koenig, Tom <Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au><br>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>>> Sent: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:25 pm<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 747 Snap Entry?<br>>><br>>> Hey John,<br>>><br>>> Out of interest.....has anyone ever attempted a snap in an airliner???<br>>><br>>> I have heard of a captain doing a slow roll in a 747....but a snap? Is<br>>> it possible?? What does a simulator do when pushed to such limits ( I<br>>> know a simulator cant snap BTW...well, I assume any way LOL!!)<br>>><br>>> Tom<br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John<br>>> Gayer<br>>> Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2008 11:42 AM<br>>> To: General pattern discussion<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap Entry<br>>><br>>> Actually a snap can occur without any aileron input...but I challenge<br>>> anyone to show a pattern ship doing a snap roll on a 45 degree downline<br>>> without ailerons.<br>>><br>>> The approach snap can occur with only the use of elevator and it<br>>> involves one wing panel stalling before the other. Try an approach with<br>>> crossed controls(aileron/rudder with some power. pull the nose up<br>>> gradually and see which wing drops. It will be the wing with the aileron<br>>> trailing edge down. This is contrary to what we see in a pattern snap<br>>> roll which always snaps in the direction of the aileron deflection thus<br>>> indicating the lack of any stalled condition<br>>><br>>> John<br>>><br>>> seefo@san.rr.com wrote:<br>>><br>>>>Just to stir the pot a little further..<br>>>><br>>>>I'm not sure a contemporary pattern plane can generate enough pitch<br>>> rate to reach critical angle of attack and properly perform a snap roll.<br>>> I think it's far more likely that we're seeing nothing but a heavily<br>>> yawed aileron roll, with the pitch break only being shown to judges to<br>>> convince them there is actually a stall happening, when in fact there is<br>>> not.<br>>>><br>>>>If a snap cannot occur using ONLY elevator and rudder, then the wing is<br>>> not stalling. Aileron inputs into a snap actually inhibit flow<br>>> separation, as the inboard wing angle of attack is drastically reduced,<br>>> and the outboard wing AoA is drastically increased.<br>>>><br>>>>But since there is no way to actually determine what is happening<br>>> aerodynamically on an F3A airplane, the best a pilot can do is fly the<br>>> airplane to what the judges expect to see based upon the rules. It<br>>> really doesn't matter what the control inputs are if the airplane LOOKS<br>>> like it's doing the right maneuver.<br>>>>_______________________________________________<br>>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>>>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>>><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br><br><br /><hr />The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? <a href='http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld' target='_new'>Find out now.</a></body>
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