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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Now if only I could have written off
all my pattern expenses I could still be flying ,... LOL ..
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:15
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Proffesional
Caller's Union</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>According to the Caller's Union (Local 12): "Your caller should be paid
25% of your gross". That should make it easy: .25 * 0 = FREE. Yup, that's
what my caller gets paid. Of course I do take her out to dinner and buy
her drinks after the contest. Can I write that off as a "business"
expense? LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR><B><I>Keith Hoard <<A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Wow,
I didn't know I was supposed to be paying my caller. Can I find one
that works for tips only?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Woodward, Jim (US
SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="blue">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Del</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do you feel
you need to have a professional caller for precision
aerobatics?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Del<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:26
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks
Chris... I appreciate your good wishes </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
.. all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to
have a professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to
compete anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Del</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com"
target=_blank>chris moon</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thanks Del. <BR>We are
actually on the same page. My points were directed more <BR>generally
than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just <BR>wanted to
make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging <BR>parameter
and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone who <BR>is
looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather
<BR>than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people
clearly <BR>don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch
attitude and <BR>angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time
and again <BR>people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some
silly 40 degree <BR>nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane
stalled before beginning <BR>a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle
of attack and a plane can be <BR>at a high angle of attack yet a "low"
nose high attitude to the ground. <BR>So, a high angle of attack and a
true stall can occur at a relatively <BR>low nose high attitude relative
to the ground but how often is it <BR>downgraded or zeroed because the
judge does not know the difference <BR>between the two? All of the time.
I see and hear it all of the time. <BR>"He could not have stalled
because the nose was not high enough" Wrong, <BR>wrong,
wrong.<BR><BR>This link has some basic info for those who want to read
even more:<BR><A
href="http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml"
target=_blank>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml</A><BR><BR>I
also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
<BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these
discussions <BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others.
If one does not <BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they
cannot become a good <BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle
of attack are key to <BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key
things that we all must <BR>understand. Understanding the difference
makes judging these maneuvers <BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I
also agree completely about having to change gears when <BR>judging
these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep <BR>the
rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.<BR><BR>I hope as
well as others that you can continue participating in pattern <BR>with
us! We need everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>Del wrote:<BR>>
Chris...<BR>> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/
_you_/ or any _one <BR>> individual_. The list is a great medium to
have intellectually <BR>> stimulating discussion that often is
educational.<BR>> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the
same calibrated <BR>> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing
and judging the same <BR>> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all
downgrades going to be <BR>> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is
that the best we can do.. <BR>> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard
with many volunteers over the <BR>> years trying to enlighten and
improve the caliber of judging and it is <BR>> much better than it
was 20 years ago..<BR>> At this stage of evolution when the judges
are reduced to nit picking <BR>> shows how well the judging has
improved for the overall big picture. <BR>> Is it realistic to stop
the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we <BR>> enjoy to
participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could <BR>> be
tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The
<BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of
the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit
are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some cases happens
in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have disparity in the
scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see and recognize
all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec. let alone
feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge miss
something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from
FAI to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same contest.
Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will always
contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>> show
the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>>
describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one
<BR>> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall
<BR>> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing
out <BR>> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it
weren't so but <BR>> that is also part of the process.<BR>> I
personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way
<BR>> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read,
some were <BR>> showing, for clarification, that some statements
being made, where in <BR>> error and just trying to clarify what the
specific rule actually <BR>> states... Not what someone
interprets..<BR>> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2
pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5
degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do
they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have
been done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1 point / 15 is
applied before they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others read it to mean
that your don't give a down grade till at least <BR>> 15º of track
have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <BR>> to
work with.<BR>> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based
on what they <BR>> prefer except when it comes to style and
presentation ~ the lower <BR>> criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~
Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <BR>>
one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art
<BR>> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and
fair to <BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges
you do know how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable
errors. Learn to hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I sincerely
hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>> as
you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer
<BR>> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can
tell..<BR>> Del<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
*From:* chris moon <BR>> *To:* <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <BR>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the
pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as<BR>> depicted?
Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge<BR>> who
wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials<BR>>
distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not
done<BR>> the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp
corners in a<BR>> square loop vs another making larger more rounded
corner. Both are<BR>> correct and should be judged identically but
can anyone argue that<BR>> one<BR>> way should be downgraded
because it was not the way "you like it"<BR>> Stalls, snaps and spins
are no different. Not the way I like it = so<BR>> what. If it is done
correctly it is always a 10. I would think<BR>> that if<BR>> the
other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am<BR>>
zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an
issue<BR>> going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in
my thinking<BR>> and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the
other way around?<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Del wrote:<BR>> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the
maneuver as<BR>> described per<BR>> > the rules. If said pilots
chooses to not make it obvious or<BR>> > discernable to the judge
then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>> > Del<BR>>
><BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:*
chris moon<BR>> > *To:* <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> ><BR>>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > George -
you have made an excellent point in that the interval<BR>> may
by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is
absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some to claim that you must "show"
them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a
personal interpretation<BR>> of the<BR>> > maneuver. Just as is
is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand<BR>> > another
overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin<BR>> >
maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a<BR>>
> portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore
your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the term "minuscule" in terms of
the time interval between pitch and<BR>> > rotation is something
we need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>> > Chris<BR>>
><BR>> > george w. kennie wrote:<BR>> >> My lip is
becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>> > going
to<BR>> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> >> I
think I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> >> My logic, however
flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane<BR>> >> straight
and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there<BR>> > is
no<BR>> >> way that this input will induce a stall to the
airframe.<BR>> > Therefore, it<BR>> >> seems to me, that
the necessary force required to stall the main<BR>> >> lifting
surface must come from the elevator. It would further<BR>> > seem
to<BR>> >> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce
a pitching<BR>> >> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or
negative. So I<BR>> > would have<BR>> >> to conclude that
the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can<BR>> >
only<BR>> >> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible
to confuse<BR>> with an<BR>> >> attitude change induced by
the rudder seeing that the required<BR>> > result<BR>> >>
is to stall the main wing.<BR>> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it
would be necessary to lead with the<BR>> >> elevator in order
to bring about this attitude change before<BR>> > rotation<BR>>
>> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>>
>> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations
and<BR>> their<BR>> >> validations as these observations are
strictly opinions.<BR>> >> G.<BR>> >><BR>> >>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>>
>> *To:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>><BR>> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have
no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>>
>> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE,
quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break
and separation from<BR>> >> the flight path" must happen
"BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >> NOT equating
fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >> pitch
and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>>
>> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation
WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge
MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from
the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If
it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4
reposting<BR>><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>>
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR><BR>Keith Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A
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