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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Jim..... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> My daffynition of
a professional caller is someone who is your regular caller that knows your
preferred way of receiving the maneuver info.. Days of just grabbing a
warm body are long gone or grabbing a spectator when flying in the higher
classes. Does that compute? My wife used to call when the maneuvers
did not have descriptions 8 and 10 words long. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:33
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Del</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:State><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do you feel you
need to have a professional caller for precision
aerobatics?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:26
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks Chris...
I appreciate your good wishes </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> ..
all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to have a
professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to compete
anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris
moon</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thanks <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del.</st1:place></st1:State> <BR>We are
actually on the same page. My points were directed more <BR>generally than
towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just <BR>wanted to make it
clear that personal preferences are not a judging <BR>parameter and that
exaggerated elements in order to please someone who <BR>is looking pretty
much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather <BR>than the whole is
also wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly <BR>don't understand the
difference between aircraft pitch attitude and <BR>angle of attack. Two very
different things. I see time and again <BR>people (yes, me too) get whacked
for not showing some silly 40 degree <BR>nose up attitude in order to
"prove" the plane stalled before beginning <BR>a spin. A wing of course is
flown by angle of attack and a plane can be <BR>at a high angle of attack
yet a "low" nose high attitude to the ground. <BR>So, a high angle of attack
and a true stall can occur at a relatively <BR>low nose high attitude
relative to the ground but how often is it <BR>downgraded or zeroed because
the judge does not know the difference <BR>between the two? All of the time.
I see and hear it all of the time. <BR>"He could not have stalled because
the nose was not high enough" Wrong, <BR>wrong, wrong.<BR><BR>This link has
some basic info for those who want to read even
more:<BR>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml<BR><BR>I
also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
<BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these discussions
<BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others. If one does not
<BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they cannot become a good
<BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle of attack are key to
<BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key things that we all must
<BR>understand. Understanding the difference makes judging these maneuvers
<BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I also agree completely about having
to change gears when <BR>judging these classes back to back at a contest.
Even trying to keep <BR>the rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at
best.<BR><BR>I hope as well as others that you can continue participating in
pattern <BR>with us! We need everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State> wrote:<BR>>
Chris...<BR>> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/ _you_/ or
any _one <BR>> individual_. The list is a great medium to have
intellectually <BR>> stimulating discussion that often is
educational.<BR>> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the same
calibrated <BR>> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing and
judging the same <BR>> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all
downgrades going to be <BR>> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is that
the best we can do.. <BR>> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with
many volunteers over the <BR>> years trying to enlighten and improve the
caliber of judging and it is <BR>> much better than it was 20 years
ago..<BR>> At this stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit
picking <BR>> shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big
picture. <BR>> Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the
beast we <BR>> enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging
guide could <BR>> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over
analyze. The <BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the
merits of the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and
exit are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some cases
happens in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have disparity in
the scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see and recognize
all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec. let alone feeling
burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge miss
something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI
to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same contest.
Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will always
contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>> show the
judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>> describes.
As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one <BR>> given judge
expects your are hurting yourself and your overall <BR>> performance. I
guess that is why they still insist on throwing out <BR>> some judges
scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but <BR>> that is
also part of the process.<BR>> I personally didn't read anyone saying
they were judging by the way <BR>> they like it.. I may have missed some
posts but what I read, some were <BR>> showing, for clarification, that
some statements being made, where in <BR>> error and just trying to
clarify what the specific rule actually <BR>> states... Not what someone
interprets..<BR>> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2
pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5
degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do
they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been
done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before
they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others read it to mean that your don't
give a down grade till at least <BR>> 15º of track have been shown.
Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <BR>> to work with.<BR>> So
yes you are right that no judge is to judge based on what they <BR>>
prefer except when it comes to style and presentation ~ the lower <BR>>
criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~ Who gets the better score...? Dean
Pappas once told us that the <BR>> one that hides their corrections the
best. That alone is another art <BR>> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you
best to be consistent and fair to <BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best
to show the judges you do know how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any
detectable errors. Learn to hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I
sincerely hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>>
as you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer
<BR>> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can
tell..<BR>> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> *From:* chris moon
<BR><MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER_X0040_HOTMAIL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Tuesday,
June 17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry
in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly
the maneuver as<BR>> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to
placate a judge<BR>> who wants to see it their way? Our judging training
materials<BR>> distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver
is not done<BR>> the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp
corners in a<BR>> square loop vs another making larger more rounded
corner. Both are<BR>> correct and should be judged identically but can
anyone argue that<BR>> one<BR>> way should be downgraded because it
was not the way "you like it"<BR>> Stalls, snaps and spins are no
different. Not the way I like it = so<BR>> what. If it is done correctly
it is always a 10. I would think<BR>> that if<BR>> the other judges
are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am<BR>> zeroing or giving
some nominal score, that there has to be an issue<BR>> going on. Am I the
only one who is consistently right in my thinking<BR>> and everyone else
is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?<BR>><BR>>
Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State> wrote:<BR>> > It is the "PILOTS"
responsibility to fly the maneuver as<BR>> described per<BR>> > the
rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or<BR>> >
discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>>
> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR>> ><BR>> > -----
Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:* chris moon<BR>> > *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday,
June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > George - you have made an excellent
point in that the interval<BR>> may by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not
overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some
to claim that you must "show" them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated
pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation<BR>> of the<BR>>
> maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to
demand<BR>> > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to
a spin<BR>> > maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to
exaggerate a<BR>> > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists,
therefore your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the term "minuscule" in
terms of the time interval between pitch and<BR>> > rotation is
something we need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>> > Chris<BR>>
><BR>> > george w. kennie wrote:<BR>> >> My lip is
becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>> > going
to<BR>> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> >> I
think I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> >> My logic, however flawed,
tells me that if I am flying my plane<BR>> >> straight and level
and I input rudder, no matter how much, there<BR>> > is no<BR>>
>> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>>
> Therefore, it<BR>> >> seems to me, that the necessary force
required to stall the main<BR>> >> lifting surface must come from
the elevator. It would further<BR>> > seem to<BR>> >> me that
this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>> >>
attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<BR>> >
would have<BR>> >> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced
by the rule can<BR>> > only<BR>> >> refer to a "pitch" break
and would be impossible to confuse<BR>> with an<BR>> >> attitude
change induced by the rudder seeing that the required<BR>> >
result<BR>> >> is to stall the main wing.<BR>> >> And yes
Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the<BR>> >>
elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before<BR>> >
rotation<BR>> >> is started, however miniscule the interval might
be.<BR>> >> Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and<BR>> their<BR>> >> validations as these
observations are strictly opinions.<BR>> >> G.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >>
*From:* Jon Lowe<BR>> >> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >><BR>> >> *Sent:*
Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> >> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> >><BR>> >>
Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have no clue how you think all
three axes can be initiated at<BR>> >> the same time. You keep
forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below,
that says the "fuselage break and separation from<BR>> >> the
flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>>
>> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break
in<BR>> >> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the
same time.<BR>> >> If you initiate all three axis at the same time,
rotation WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST
determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from the
flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If it
didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4
reposting<BR>><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR>No virus found in this
incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG. <BR>Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database:
270.4.0/1506 - Release Date: 6/17/2008 4:30
PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG.
<BR>Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008
7:09 AM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>