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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Totally agreed.... For years I had no
one else to use as a mentor/coach and other parts of country that are in decline
also have similar situation. For me.. as I was attempting to practice my work
schedule dictated I fly when I could be off from work which was often weekdays
or in am when most people where working.. So then my wife and kids enjoyed
calling for me back when pattern was a simpler beast.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del
</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:52
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Understood. Besides,
its more fun when you have a flying buddy too.
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:09
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim.....
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> My
daffynition of a professional caller is someone who is your regular caller
that knows your preferred way of receiving the maneuver info.. Days of
just grabbing a warm body are long gone or grabbing a spectator when flying in
the higher classes. Does that compute? My wife used to call when
the maneuvers did not have descriptions 8 and 10 words long.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:33 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Del</SPAN></FONT></st1:State></st1:place><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do you feel you
need to have a professional caller for precision
aerobatics?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:26
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks
Chris... I appreciate your good wishes </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
.. all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to
have a professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to
compete anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thanks
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Del.</st1:State></st1:place>
<BR>We are actually on the same page. My points were directed more
<BR>generally than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just
<BR>wanted to make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging
<BR>parameter and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone who
<BR>is looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather
<BR>than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly
<BR>don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch attitude and
<BR>angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time and again
<BR>people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some silly 40 degree
<BR>nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane stalled before
beginning <BR>a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle of attack and a
plane can be <BR>at a high angle of attack yet a "low" nose high attitude
to the ground. <BR>So, a high angle of attack and a true stall can occur
at a relatively <BR>low nose high attitude relative to the ground but how
often is it <BR>downgraded or zeroed because the judge does not know the
difference <BR>between the two? All of the time. I see and hear it all of
the time. <BR>"He could not have stalled because the nose was not high
enough" Wrong, <BR>wrong, wrong.<BR><BR>This link has some basic info for
those who want to read even
more:<BR>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml<BR><BR>I
also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
<BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these discussions
<BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others. If one does
not <BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they cannot become a
good <BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle of attack are key
to <BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key things that we all
must <BR>understand. Understanding the difference makes judging these
maneuvers <BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I also agree completely
about having to change gears when <BR>judging these classes back to back
at a contest. Even trying to keep <BR>the rules straight for the 2 types
is difficult at best.<BR><BR>I hope as well as others that you can
continue participating in pattern <BR>with us! We need
everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place> wrote:<BR>> Chris...<BR>>
Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/ _you_/ or any _one
<BR>> individual_. The list is a great medium to have intellectually
<BR>> stimulating discussion that often is educational.<BR>> Judging
is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the same calibrated <BR>> eyeball?
No.. But all judges should be seeing and judging the same <BR>>
maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all downgrades going to be <BR>>
identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is that the best we can do.. <BR>>
possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with many volunteers over the
<BR>> years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and
it is <BR>> much better than it was 20 years ago..<BR>> At this
stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking <BR>>
shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big picture.
<BR>> Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast
we <BR>> enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging
guide could <BR>> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to
over analyze. The <BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on
the merits of the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do.
Entry and exit are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some
cases happens in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have
disparity in the scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see
and recognize all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec. let
alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge miss
something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI
to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same contest.
Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will always
contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>> show the
judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>> describes.
As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one <BR>> given
judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall <BR>>
performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out
<BR>> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so
but <BR>> that is also part of the process.<BR>> I personally didn't
read anyone saying they were judging by the way <BR>> they like it.. I
may have missed some posts but what I read, some were <BR>> showing,
for clarification, that some statements being made, where in <BR>>
error and just trying to clarify what the specific rule actually <BR>>
states... Not what someone interprets..<BR>> I have always had an
issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and
one flies consistently 5 degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the
other flies on the rail do they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements
in the maneuver have been done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1
point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others
read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at least <BR>>
15º of track have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points
<BR>> to work with.<BR>> So yes you are right that no judge is to
judge based on what they <BR>> prefer except when it comes to style and
presentation ~ the lower <BR>> criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~ Who
gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <BR>> one
that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art <BR>>
/subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to
<BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges you do know
how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable errors. Learn to
hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I sincerely hoped I helped Chris.
Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>> as you feel apropos. I still
love the sport and what it has to offer <BR>> but am having to give it
up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can tell..<BR>> <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place><BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* chris moon
<BR><MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER_X0040_HOTMAIL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Tuesday,
June 17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to
simply fly the maneuver as<BR>> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate
a portion to placate a judge<BR>> who wants to see it their way? Our
judging training materials<BR>> distinctly say not to downgrade just
because the maneuver is not done<BR>> the way you like. The example was
one pilot making sharp corners in a<BR>> square loop vs another making
larger more rounded corner. Both are<BR>> correct and should be judged
identically but can anyone argue that<BR>> one<BR>> way should be
downgraded because it was not the way "you like it"<BR>> Stalls, snaps
and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so<BR>> what. If it
is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think<BR>> that if<BR>>
the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am<BR>>
zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an
issue<BR>> going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my
thinking<BR>> and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other
way around?<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place>
wrote:<BR>> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver
as<BR>> described per<BR>> > the rules. If said pilots chooses to
not make it obvious or<BR>> > discernable to the judge then enjoy
the score you should be awarded.<BR>> > <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place><BR>>
><BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:* chris
moon<BR>> > *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> >
*Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>>
> George - you have made an excellent point in that the
interval<BR>> may by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable
to everyone. It is absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some to claim that
you must "show" them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated pitch up just to
satisfy a personal interpretation<BR>> of the<BR>> > maneuver.
Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand<BR>> >
another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin<BR>>
> maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate
a<BR>> > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore
your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the term "minuscule" in terms of
the time interval between pitch and<BR>> > rotation is something we
need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>> > Chris<BR>> ><BR>>
> george w. kennie wrote:<BR>> >> My lip is becoming too
painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>> > going to<BR>>
>> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> >> I think I'm
with Jon on this one.<BR>> >> My logic, however flawed, tells me
that if I am flying my plane<BR>> >> straight and level and I
input rudder, no matter how much, there<BR>> > is no<BR>>
>> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>>
> Therefore, it<BR>> >> seems to me, that the necessary force
required to stall the main<BR>> >> lifting surface must come from
the elevator. It would further<BR>> > seem to<BR>> >> me
that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>>
>> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So
I<BR>> > would have<BR>> >> to conclude that the attitude
"break" referenced by the rule can<BR>> > only<BR>> >>
refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse<BR>> with
an<BR>> >> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the
required<BR>> > result<BR>> >> is to stall the main
wing.<BR>> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to
lead with the<BR>> >> elevator in order to bring about this
attitude change before<BR>> > rotation<BR>> >> is started,
however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>> >> Of course I'm
still open to hearing other interpretations and<BR>> their<BR>>
>> validations as these observations are strictly opinions.<BR>>
>> G.<BR>> >><BR>> >> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>> >> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >><BR>> >> *Sent:*
Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> >> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> >><BR>> >>
Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have no clue how you think all
three axes can be initiated at<BR>> >> the same time. You keep
forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below,
that says the "fuselage break and separation from<BR>> >> the
flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>>
>> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break
in<BR>> >> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the
same time.<BR>> >> If you initiate all three axis at the same
time, rotation WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that
is specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge
MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from
the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If it
didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4
reposting<BR>><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>>
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