<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
}
</style>
</head>
<body class='hmmessage'>
Nuts! Now I know why I didn't make the finals yet. No professional caller! Doh! Gonna go get me one right now...<BR><BR>
Ed<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:15:53 -0700<BR>From: jpavlick@idseng.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Proffesional Caller's Union<BR><BR>
<DIV>According to the Caller's Union (Local 12): "Your caller should be paid 25% of your gross". That should make it easy: .25 * 0 = FREE. Yup, that's what my caller gets paid. Of course I do take her out to dinner and buy her drinks after the contest. Can I write that off as a "business" expense? LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR><B><I>Keith Hoard <khoard@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Wow, I didn't know I was supposed to be paying my caller. Can I find one that works for tips only?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=EC_gmail_quote>On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Del</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do you feel you need to have a professional caller for precision aerobatics?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Del<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:26 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks Chris... I appreciate your good wishes </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> .. all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to have a professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to compete anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Del</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thanks Del. <BR>We are actually on the same page. My points were directed more <BR>generally than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just <BR>wanted to make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging <BR>parameter and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone who <BR>is looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather <BR>than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly <BR>don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch attitude and <BR>angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time and again <BR>people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some silly 40 degree <BR>nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane stalled before beginning <BR>a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle of attack and a plane can be <BR>at a high angle of attack yet a "low" nose high attitude to the ground. <BR>So, a high angle of attack and a true stall can occur at a relatively <BR>low nose high attitude relative to the ground but how often is it <BR>downgraded or zeroed because the judge does not know the difference <BR>between the two? All of the time. I see and hear it all of the time. <BR>"He could not have stalled because the nose was not high enough" Wrong, <BR>wrong, wrong.<BR><BR>This link has some basic info for those who want to read even more:<BR><A href="http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml" target=_blank>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml</A><BR><BR>I also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every <BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these discussions <BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others. If one does not <BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they cannot become a good <BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle of attack are key to <BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key things that we all must <BR>understand. Understanding the difference makes judging these maneuvers <BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I also agree completely about having to change gears when <BR>judging these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep <BR>the rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.<BR><BR>I hope as well as others that you can continue participating in pattern <BR>with us! We need everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>Del wrote:<BR>> Chris...<BR>> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/ _you_/ or any _one <BR>> individual_. The list is a great medium to have intellectually <BR>> stimulating discussion that often is educational.<BR>> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the same calibrated <BR>> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing and judging the same <BR>> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all downgrades going to be <BR>> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is that the best we can do.. <BR>> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with many volunteers over the <BR>> years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and it is <BR>> much better than it was 20 years ago..<BR>> At this stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking <BR>> shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big picture. <BR>> Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we <BR>> enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could <BR>> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The <BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some cases happens in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have disparity in the scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see and recognize all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec. let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge miss something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same contest. Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will always contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>> show the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>> describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one <BR>> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall <BR>> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out <BR>> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but <BR>> that is also part of the process.<BR>> I personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way <BR>> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read, some were <BR>> showing, for clarification, that some statements being made, where in <BR>> error and just trying to clarify what the specific rule actually <BR>> states... Not what someone interprets..<BR>> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5 degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at least <BR>> 15º of track have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <BR>> to work with.<BR>> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based on what they <BR>> prefer except when it comes to style and presentation ~ the lower <BR>> criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~ Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <BR>> one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art <BR>> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to <BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges you do know how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable errors. Learn to hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I sincerely hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>> as you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer <BR>> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can tell..<BR>> Del<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* chris moon <BR>> *To:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as<BR>> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge<BR>> who wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials<BR>> distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not done<BR>> the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a<BR>> square loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are<BR>> correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue that<BR>> one<BR>> way should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like it"<BR>> Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so<BR>> what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think<BR>> that if<BR>> the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am<BR>> zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue<BR>> going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking<BR>> and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Del wrote:<BR>> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver as<BR>> described per<BR>> > the rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or<BR>> > discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>> > Del<BR>> ><BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:* chris moon<BR>> > *To:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval<BR>> may by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation<BR>> of the<BR>> > maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand<BR>> > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin<BR>> > maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a<BR>> > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and<BR>> > rotation is something we need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>> > Chris<BR>> ><BR>> > george w. kennie wrote:<BR>> >> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>> > going to<BR>> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> >> I think I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> >> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane<BR>> >> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there<BR>> > is no<BR>> >> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>> > Therefore, it<BR>> >> seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main<BR>> >> lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further<BR>> > seem to<BR>> >> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>> >> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<BR>> > would have<BR>> >> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can<BR>> > only<BR>> >> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse<BR>> with an<BR>> >> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required<BR>> > result<BR>> >> is to stall the main wing.<BR>> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the<BR>> >> elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before<BR>> > rotation<BR>> >> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>> >> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and<BR>> their<BR>> >> validations as these observations are strictly opinions.<BR>> >> G.<BR>> >><BR>> >> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>> >> *To:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> >><BR>> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> >><BR>> >> Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>> >> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from<BR>> >> the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>> >> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4 reposting<BR>><BR>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! <A href="http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback" target=_blank>Learn More</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG. <BR>Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1506 - Release Date: 6/17/2008 4:30 PM</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR><BR>Keith Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><hr />The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. <a href='http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst' target='_new'>Learn More</a></body>
</html>