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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Del</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Why do you feel you need to have a
professional caller for precision aerobatics?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 18, 2008
10:26 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Thanks Chris... I appreciate your
good wishes </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> .. all I can say is,...
with the changes in costs to compete and need to have a professional caller
etc. all make it next to impossible for me to compete anymore. Becomes to
prohibitive for a casual competitor. </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State></span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com" title="cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris
moon</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday, June
18, 2008 12:19 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thanks <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del.</st1:place></st1:State> <br>
We are actually on the same page. My points were directed more <br>
generally than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just <br>
wanted to make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging <br>
parameter and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone who <br>
is looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather <br>
than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly <br>
don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch attitude and <br>
angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time and again <br>
people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some silly 40 degree <br>
nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane stalled before
beginning <br>
a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle of attack and a plane can be <br>
at a high angle of attack yet a "low" nose high attitude to the
ground. <br>
So, a high angle of attack and a true stall can occur at a relatively <br>
low nose high attitude relative to the ground but how often is it <br>
downgraded or zeroed because the judge does not know the difference <br>
between the two? All of the time. I see and hear it all of the time. <br>
"He could not have stalled because the nose was not high enough"
Wrong, <br>
wrong, wrong.<br>
<br>
This link has some basic info for those who want to read even more:<br>
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml<br>
<br>
I also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every <br>
respect. We can always make it better of course and these discussions <br>
make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others. If one does not <br>
truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they cannot become a good <br>
judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle of attack are key to <br>
understanding stalls and snaps so they are key things that we all must <br>
understand. Understanding the difference makes judging these maneuvers <br>
so much easier.<br>
<br>
AMA vs. FAI I also agree completely about having to change gears when <br>
judging these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep <br>
the rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.<br>
<br>
I hope as well as others that you can continue participating in pattern <br>
with us! We need everyone.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State> wrote:<br>
> Chris...<br>
> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/ _you_/ or any _one <br>
> individual_. The list is a great medium to have intellectually <br>
> stimulating discussion that often is educational.<br>
> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the same calibrated <br>
> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing and judging the same <br>
> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all downgrades going to be <br>
> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is that the best we can do.. <br>
> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with many volunteers over the <br>
> years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and it is <br>
> much better than it was 20 years ago..<br>
> At this stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking <br>
> shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big picture. <br>
> Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we <br>
> enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could <br>
> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The <br>
> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of the snap <br>
> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit are also worthy <br>
> of their focus. That snap in some cases happens in less than 1 sec. It <br>
> is always going to have disparity in the scores just based on the fact <br>
> not all eyes see and recognize all the details they need to catch in <br>
> that sec. let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <br>
> judge miss something.<br>
> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI to AMA and <br>
> back again during the same day or same contest. Dwindling numbers make <br>
> that a reality.<br>
> I will always contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <br>
> show the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <br>
> describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one <br>
> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall <br>
> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out <br>
> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but <br>
> that is also part of the process.<br>
> I personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way <br>
> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read, some were <br>
> showing, for clarification, that some statements being made, where in <br>
> error and just trying to clarify what the specific rule actually <br>
> states... Not what someone interprets..<br>
> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies <br>
> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5 degrees off in <br>
> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do they both deserve a <br>
> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been done per the rules? Some <br>
> argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º error.. <br>
> others read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at least <br>
> 15º of track have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <br>
> to work with.<br>
> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based on what they <br>
> prefer except when it comes to style and presentation ~ the lower <br>
> criteria for downgrades.<br>
> ~~~ Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <br>
> one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art <br>
> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to <br>
> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges you do know how <br>
> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable errors. Learn to hide your <br>
> corrections.<br>
> I sincerely hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <br>
> as you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer <br>
> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can tell..<br>
> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><br>
><br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> *From:* chris moon <br>
<MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER_x0040_HOTMAIL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> <br>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_x0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 17,
2008 12:15 PM<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>
><br>
> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as<br>
> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge<br>
> who wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials<br>
> distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not done<br>
> the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a<br>
> square loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are<br>
> correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue that<br>
> one<br>
> way should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like
it"<br>
> Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so<br>
> what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think<br>
> that if<br>
> the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I
am<br>
> zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue<br>
> going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking<br>
> and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?<br>
><br>
> Chris<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>
wrote:<br>
> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver as<br>
> described per<br>
> > the rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or<br>
> > discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<br>
> > <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><br>
> ><br>
> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > *From:* chris moon<br>
> > *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> ><br>
> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>
> ><br>
> > George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval<br>
> may by<br>
> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is
absolutely<br>
> > wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge
an<br>
> > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation<br>
> of the<br>
> > maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand<br>
> > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin<br>
> > maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a<br>
> > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your<br>
> > usage of<br>
> > the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between
pitch and<br>
> > rotation is something we need to keep in mind.<br>
> ><br>
> > Chris<br>
> ><br>
> > george w. kennie wrote:<br>
> >> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<br>
> > going to<br>
> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.<br>
> >> I think I'm with Jon on this one.<br>
> >> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane<br>
> >> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there<br>
> > is no<br>
> >> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.<br>
> > Therefore, it<br>
> >> seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main<br>
> >> lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further<br>
> > seem to<br>
> >> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<br>
> >> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<br>
> > would have<br>
> >> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the
rule can<br>
> > only<br>
> >> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to
confuse<br>
> with an<br>
> >> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required<br>
> > result<br>
> >> is to stall the main wing.<br>
> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the<br>
> >> elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before<br>
> > rotation<br>
> >> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<br>
> >> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and<br>
> their<br>
> >> validations as these observations are strictly opinions.<br>
> >> G.<br>
> >><br>
> >> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<br>
> >> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> >><br>
> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<br>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jim,<br>
> >><br>
> >> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<br>
> >> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<br>
> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation
from<br>
> >> the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS
STARTED". I'm<br>
> >> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<br>
> >> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<br>
> >> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL<br>
> >> start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT
permitted.<br>
> >> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<br>
> >> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started.<br>
> >> If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Jon Lowe<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> Klipped 4 reposting<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
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