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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yep, I bought a cheapie MP3 player and
soldered on a pair of wires that I brought out of the case which is
terminated at a small momentary switch. It wasn't terribly difficult but if you
don't have a really fine point soldering iron it would be a bit more
challenging.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jay Marshall asked if I had thought of doing a KF
article on it. I just might after I put the audio in it and field test
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tim.Pascoe@ec.gc.ca href="mailto:Tim.Pascoe@ec.gc.ca">Pascoe,Tim
[Burlington]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Sequence
audio (was Snap entry in FAI)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pete,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
What modification to the MP3 player did you make? I’m assuming an external
switch to move from maneuver to maneuver? Any guidelines for doing this?
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Timothy
Pascoe</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">
<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=navy size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Physical
Sciences Specialist</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=red size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Yak Shaving
- Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a
problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later,
solves the real problem you're working on</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana
color=purple size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: purple; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Environment
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><ns0:country-region
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><FONT
color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Canada</SPAN></FONT></st1:country-region></ns0:country-region><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"> / Environnement
</SPAN></FONT><ns0:country-region w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe" w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><ns0:place w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe" w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Canada</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:country-region></ns0:place></ns0:country-region><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"><BR></SPAN></FONT><ns0:country-region
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><ns0:place
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Canada</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:country-region></ns0:place></ns0:country-region><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"> Centre for Inland Waters / Centre
Canadien des Eaux Intérieures<BR></SPAN></FONT><ns0:Street
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><ns0:address
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:Street
w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">867 Lakeshore
Road</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street></ns0:address></ns0:Street><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"> / 867, chemin
Lakeshore<BR></SPAN></FONT><ns0:City w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe" w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z"
w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Burlington</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></ns0:City><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple">, </SPAN></FONT><ns0:State
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:State
w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Ontario</SPAN></FONT></st1:State></ns0:State><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"> / </SPAN></FONT><ns0:City
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:City
w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Burlington</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></ns0:City><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"> (</SPAN></FONT><ns0:State
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><ns0:place
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T12:54:00Z" w:insAuthor="Timothy Pascoe"><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=purple><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">Ontario</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:State></ns0:place></ns0:State><FONT
color=purple><SPAN style="COLOR: purple">)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana
color=purple size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: purple; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">L7R
4A6<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Trebuchet MS" color=green size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">Tel/Tél:
(905) 336-6239<BR>Fax/</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Trebuchet MS" color=green
size=2><SPAN lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">Téléc</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face="Trebuchet MS" color=green size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">: (905)
336-4609<BR>E-mail/C. élec: </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><A title=mailto:tim.pascoe@ec.gc.ca
href="blocked::mailto:tim.pascoe@ec.gc.ca"><FONT
title=mailto:tim.pascoe@ec.gc.ca face="Trebuchet MS" size=2><SPAN
title=mailto:tim.pascoe@ec.gc.ca><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">tim.pascoe@ec.gc.ca</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></A><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Government of
Canada/Gouvernement du Canada</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"> <BR></SPAN></FONT><I><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=gray size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">This
e-mail represents the opinions and views solely held by its author and in no
manner may be considered as representing those of his/her
employer.</SPAN></FONT></I><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Pete Cosky<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:41
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Sequnce audio (was Snap entry in
FAI)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As a side note, I was going to
record the maneuvers for Intermediate to load into the cheap MP3 player I
modified so I won't need to find a caller for practice. If anyone wants these
or any other sequence for that matter just drop me a line.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=pcosky@comcast.net href="mailto:pcosky@comcast.net">Pete Cosky</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:11 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wow, I never thought of charging
for my voice services as a caller. Industrial narrations, commercials, just
about any voice over work I charge for but calling....hmmm, I never thought
of that.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:25 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks
Chris... I appreciate your good wishes </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
.. all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to
have a professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to
compete anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
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Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
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face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thanks
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del.</st1:place></st1:State>
<BR>We are actually on the same page. My points were directed more
<BR>generally than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just
<BR>wanted to make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging
<BR>parameter and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone
who <BR>is looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver
rather <BR>than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people
clearly <BR>don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch
attitude and <BR>angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time
and again <BR>people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some
silly 40 degree <BR>nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane
stalled before beginning <BR>a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle
of attack and a plane can be <BR>at a high angle of attack yet a "low"
nose high attitude to the ground. <BR>So, a high angle of attack and a
true stall can occur at a relatively <BR>low nose high attitude relative
to the ground but how often is it <BR>downgraded or zeroed because the
judge does not know the difference <BR>between the two? All of the time.
I see and hear it all of the time. <BR>"He could not have stalled
because the nose was not high enough" Wrong, <BR>wrong,
wrong.<BR><BR>This link has some basic info for those who want to read
even
more:<BR>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml<BR><BR>I
also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
<BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these
discussions <BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others.
If one does not <BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they
cannot become a good <BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle
of attack are key to <BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key
things that we all must <BR>understand. Understanding the difference
makes judging these maneuvers <BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I
also agree completely about having to change gears when <BR>judging
these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep <BR>the
rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.<BR><BR>I hope as
well as others that you can continue participating in pattern <BR>with
us! We need everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>
wrote:<BR>> Chris...<BR>> Please!!! don't take this personally
directed at/ _you_/ or any _one <BR>> individual_. The list is a
great medium to have intellectually <BR>> stimulating discussion that
often is educational.<BR>> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all
have the same calibrated <BR>> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be
seeing and judging the same <BR>> maneuver with similar downgrades.
Are all downgrades going to be <BR>> identical.. Not realistically ~
No.. Is that the best we can do.. <BR>> possibly..? The NSRCA has
worked hard with many volunteers over the <BR>> years trying to
enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and it is <BR>> much
better than it was 20 years ago..<BR>> At this stage of evolution
when the judges are reduced to nit picking <BR>> shows how well the
judging has improved for the overall big picture. <BR>> Is it
realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we <BR>>
enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could
<BR>> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze.
The <BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits
of the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and
exit are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some cases
happens in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have
disparity in the scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see
and recognize all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec.
let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge
miss something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears
from FAI to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same
contest. Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will
always contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>>
show the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>>
describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one
<BR>> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall
<BR>> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing
out <BR>> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it
weren't so but <BR>> that is also part of the process.<BR>> I
personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way
<BR>> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read,
some were <BR>> showing, for clarification, that some statements
being made, where in <BR>> error and just trying to clarify what the
specific rule actually <BR>> states... Not what someone
interprets..<BR>> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2
pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5
degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do
they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have
been done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1 point / 15 is
applied before they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others read it to mean
that your don't give a down grade till at least <BR>> 15º of track
have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <BR>> to
work with.<BR>> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based
on what they <BR>> prefer except when it comes to style and
presentation ~ the lower <BR>> criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~
Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <BR>>
one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art
<BR>> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and
fair to <BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges
you do know how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable
errors. Learn to hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I sincerely
hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>> as
you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer
<BR>> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can
tell..<BR>> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR>><BR>> ----- Original
Message -----<BR>> *From:* chris moon
<BR><MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER_X0040_HOTMAIL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Tuesday,
June 17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to
simply fly the maneuver as<BR>> depicted? Why then must they
exaggerate a portion to placate a judge<BR>> who wants to see it
their way? Our judging training materials<BR>> distinctly say not to
downgrade just because the maneuver is not done<BR>> the way you
like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a<BR>> square
loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are<BR>>
correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue
that<BR>> one<BR>> way should be downgraded because it was not the
way "you like it"<BR>> Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not
the way I like it = so<BR>> what. If it is done correctly it is
always a 10. I would think<BR>> that if<BR>> the other judges are
consistently giving "normal" scores and I am<BR>> zeroing or giving
some nominal score, that there has to be an issue<BR>> going on. Am I
the only one who is consistently right in my thinking<BR>> and
everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way
around?<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>
wrote:<BR>> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the
maneuver as<BR>> described per<BR>> > the rules. If said pilots
chooses to not make it obvious or<BR>> > discernable to the judge
then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>> > <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR>>
><BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:*
chris moon<BR>> > *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> >
*Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>>
> George - you have made an excellent point in that the
interval<BR>> may by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not overly
noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some to
claim that you must "show" them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated
pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation<BR>> of
the<BR>> > maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those
judges to demand<BR>> > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a
stall entry to a spin<BR>> > maneuver. It is never the job of the
participant to exaggerate a<BR>> > portion of a maneuver just to
prove it exists, therefore your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the
term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and<BR>>
> rotation is something we need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>>
> Chris<BR>> ><BR>> > george w. kennie wrote:<BR>>
>> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think
I'm<BR>> > going to<BR>> >> stick my nose in here
somewhere.<BR>> >> I think I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>>
>> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my
plane<BR>> >> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter
how much, there<BR>> > is no<BR>> >> way that this input
will induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>> > Therefore, it<BR>>
>> seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the
main<BR>> >> lifting surface must come from the elevator. It
would further<BR>> > seem to<BR>> >> me that this input
must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>> >> attitude
to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<BR>> > would
have<BR>> >> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced
by the rule can<BR>> > only<BR>> >> refer to a "pitch"
break and would be impossible to confuse<BR>> with an<BR>>
>> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the
required<BR>> > result<BR>> >> is to stall the main
wing.<BR>> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary
to lead with the<BR>> >> elevator in order to bring about this
attitude change before<BR>> > rotation<BR>> >> is
started, however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>> >> Of
course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and<BR>>
their<BR>> >> validations as these observations are strictly
opinions.<BR>> >> G.<BR>> >><BR>> >> -----
Original Message -----<BR>> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>>
>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >><BR>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> >>
*Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have
no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>>
>> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE,
quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break
and separation from<BR>> >> the flight path" must happen
"BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >> NOT equating
fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >> pitch
and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>>
>> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation
WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge
MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from
the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If
it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4
reposting<BR>><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>>
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