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<DIV><FONT size=2>The only way I could get my wife to a pattern meet is if our
son competes when he gets older.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Snaproll4@aol.com
href="mailto:Snaproll4@aol.com">Snaproll4@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=3>
<DIV>Pete,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> You may not believe this, but some pilots sleep with
their callers. There are a couple of husband/wife teams out there.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Steve</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 6/18/2008 12:15:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:pcosky@comcast.net">pcosky@comcast.net</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Wow, I never thought of charging for my voice services
as a caller. Industrial narrations, commercials, just about any voice over
work I charge for but calling....hmmm, I never thought of that.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:25
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Thanks Chris... I appreciate
your good wishes </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> .. all I can say
is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to have a
professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to compete
anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 18, 2008
12:19 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Thanks Del. <BR>We are actually on the same page. My
points were directed more <BR>generally than towards anyone who is
posting to this topic. I just <BR>wanted to make it clear that personal
preferences are not a judging <BR>parameter and that exaggerated
elements in order to please someone who <BR>is looking pretty much only
for certain elements of a maneuver rather <BR>than the whole is also
wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly <BR>don't understand the
difference between aircraft pitch attitude and <BR>angle of attack. Two
very different things. I see time and again <BR>people (yes, me too) get
whacked for not showing some silly 40 degree <BR>nose up attitude in
order to "prove" the plane stalled before beginning <BR>a spin. A wing
of course is flown by angle of attack and a plane can be <BR>at a high
angle of attack yet a "low" nose high attitude to the ground. <BR>So, a
high angle of attack and a true stall can occur at a relatively <BR>low
nose high attitude relative to the ground but how often is it
<BR>downgraded or zeroed because the judge does not know the difference
<BR>between the two? All of the time. I see and hear it all of the time.
<BR>"He could not have stalled because the nose was not high enough"
Wrong, <BR>wrong, wrong.<BR><BR>This link has some basic info for those
who want to read even
more:<BR>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml<BR><BR>I
also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
<BR>respect. We can always make it better of course and these
discussions <BR>make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others.
If one does not <BR>truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they
cannot become a good <BR>judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle
of attack are key to <BR>understanding stalls and snaps so they are key
things that we all must <BR>understand. Understanding the difference
makes judging these maneuvers <BR>so much easier.<BR><BR>AMA vs. FAI I
also agree completely about having to change gears when <BR>judging
these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep <BR>the
rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.<BR><BR>I hope as
well as others that you can continue participating in pattern <BR>with
us! We need everyone.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>Del wrote:<BR>>
Chris...<BR>> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/
_you_/ or any _one <BR>> individual_. The list is a great medium to
have intellectually <BR>> stimulating discussion that often is
educational.<BR>> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the
same calibrated <BR>> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing
and judging the same <BR>> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all
downgrades going to be <BR>> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is
that the best we can do.. <BR>> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard
with many volunteers over the <BR>> years trying to enlighten and
improve the caliber of judging and it is <BR>> much better than it
was 20 years ago..<BR>> At this stage of evolution when the judges
are reduced to nit picking <BR>> shows how well the judging has
improved for the overall big picture. <BR>> Is it realistic to stop
the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we <BR>> enjoy to
participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could <BR>> be
tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The
<BR>> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of
the snap <BR>> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit
are also worthy <BR>> of their focus. That snap in some cases happens
in less than 1 sec. It <BR>> is always going to have disparity in the
scores just based on the fact <BR>> not all eyes see and recognize
all the details they need to catch in <BR>> that sec. let alone
feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a <BR>> judge miss
something.<BR>> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from
FAI to AMA and <BR>> back again during the same day or same contest.
Dwindling numbers make <BR>> that a reality.<BR>> I will always
contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to <BR>> show
the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books <BR>>
describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one
<BR>> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall
<BR>> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing
out <BR>> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it
weren't so but <BR>> that is also part of the process.<BR>> I
personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way
<BR>> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read,
some were <BR>> showing, for clarification, that some statements
being made, where in <BR>> error and just trying to clarify what the
specific rule actually <BR>> states... Not what someone
interprets..<BR>> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2
pilots flies <BR>> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5
degrees off in <BR>> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do
they both deserve a <BR>> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have
been done per the rules? Some <BR>> argue that 1 point / 15 is
applied before they get to a 15º error.. <BR>> others read it to mean
that your don't give a down grade till at least <BR>> 15º of track
have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points <BR>> to
work with.<BR>> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based
on what they <BR>> prefer except when it comes to style and
presentation ~ the lower <BR>> criteria for downgrades.<BR>> ~~~
Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the <BR>>
one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art
<BR>> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and
fair to <BR>> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges
you do know how <BR>> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable
errors. Learn to hide your <BR>> corrections.<BR>> I sincerely
hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list <BR>> as
you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer
<BR>> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can
tell..<BR>> Del<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
*From:* chris moon <MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June
17, 2008 12:15 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry
in FAI<BR>><BR>> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply
fly the maneuver as<BR>> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a
portion to placate a judge<BR>> who wants to see it their way? Our
judging training materials<BR>> distinctly say not to downgrade just
because the maneuver is not done<BR>> the way you like. The example
was one pilot making sharp corners in a<BR>> square loop vs another
making larger more rounded corner. Both are<BR>> correct and should
be judged identically but can anyone argue that<BR>> one<BR>> way
should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like it"<BR>>
Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it =
so<BR>> what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would
think<BR>> that if<BR>> the other judges are consistently giving
"normal" scores and I am<BR>> zeroing or giving some nominal score,
that there has to be an issue<BR>> going on. Am I the only one who is
consistently right in my thinking<BR>> and everyone else is all
wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?<BR>><BR>>
Chris<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Del wrote:<BR>> > It is the
"PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver as<BR>> described
per<BR>> > the rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it
obvious or<BR>> > discernable to the judge then enjoy the score
you should be awarded.<BR>> > Del<BR>> ><BR>> > -----
Original Message -----<BR>> > *From:* chris moon<BR>> >
*To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> > *Sent:*
Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > George -
you have made an excellent point in that the interval<BR>> may
by<BR>> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is
absolutely<BR>> > wrong for some to claim that you must "show"
them as judge an<BR>> > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a
personal interpretation<BR>> of the<BR>> > maneuver. Just as is
is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand<BR>> > another
overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin<BR>> >
maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a<BR>>
> portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore
your<BR>> > usage of<BR>> > the term "minuscule" in terms of
the time interval between pitch and<BR>> > rotation is something
we need to keep in mind.<BR>> ><BR>> > Chris<BR>>
><BR>> > george w. kennie wrote:<BR>> >> My lip is
becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>> > going
to<BR>> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> >> I
think I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> >> My logic, however
flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane<BR>> >> straight
and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there<BR>> > is
no<BR>> >> way that this input will induce a stall to the
airframe.<BR>> > Therefore, it<BR>> >> seems to me, that
the necessary force required to stall the main<BR>> >> lifting
surface must come from the elevator. It would further<BR>> > seem
to<BR>> >> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce
a pitching<BR>> >> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or
negative. So I<BR>> > would have<BR>> >> to conclude that
the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can<BR>> >
only<BR>> >> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible
to confuse<BR>> with an<BR>> >> attitude change induced by
the rudder seeing that the required<BR>> > result<BR>> >>
is to stall the main wing.<BR>> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it
would be necessary to lead with the<BR>> >> elevator in order
to bring about this attitude change before<BR>> > rotation<BR>>
>> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>>
>> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations
and<BR>> their<BR>> >> validations as these observations are
strictly opinions.<BR>> >> G.<BR>> >><BR>> >>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> >> *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>>
>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >><BR>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> >>
*Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jim,<BR>> >><BR>> >> I have
no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>>
>> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE,
quoted<BR>> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break
and separation from<BR>> >> the flight path" must happen
"BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >> NOT equating
fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >> pitch
and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>>
>> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation
WILL<BR>> >> start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted.<BR>> >> READ THE RULE! The judge
MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>> >> separated from
the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<BR>> >> If
it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Jon Lowe<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>> Klipped 4
reposting<BR>><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>>
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