[From nobody Tue Jun 17 06:51:40 2008 Received: from jaysdesktop ([75.176.186.205]) by cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080617144102.FOVS28655.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@jaysdesktop> for <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:41:02 +0000 From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot@sc.rr.com> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:40:54 -0400 Message-ID: <221D9BAE68134F9B9AAD30DD8552E471@jaysdesktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8D066.9EA6C3F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3311 Thread-Index: AcjQhvG9U8EHg1fRRPmjXkzbCT1YuQAAPnxg In-Reply-To: <6792ef120806170722m4c796602s8ee4ddfa3626062a@mail.gmail.com> Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8D066.9EA6C3F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always thought the Lomcevak was primarily a tumbling maneuver. =20 A good description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomcevak =20 Jay Marshall=20 -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith = Hoard Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI =20 I thought a Shoulder Roll was something Captain Kirk did to escape = danger? On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:29 AM, JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com> wrote: A Lomcevak (and it's multiple spellings) is almost like a shoulder roll. = The inputs are best done with left aileron, left rudder and down = elevator. If this is done high enough, and long enough, it becomes a KE = spin with some input massaging. It's actually slower than a snap roll = cause the plane (model) takes a couple of rotations to fully stall. And = a pattern plane, with it's long tail, won't. The KE maneuver FAI is = doing is a positive 1 1/2 snaps, from KE to KE. I don't think it's even = an option to do it negative. Even if someone wanted to do it that way, = they would probably crash. The snap must be opposite direction of the = 1/4 roll to KE and that would mean a negative snap... at the ground... = ouch =20 Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of = vicenterc@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:25 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI Isn't the snap from KE is called Loncevac (sp?)? I agree, it is a lot = faster than the standard snap. I don't know why. =20 -- Vicente "Vince" Bortone =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "JShulman" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com>=20 and a really fast one at that =20 Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Mike = Hester Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:20 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI Yep....there's a 1 1/2 snap from KE in F-09. =20 Really cool looking manuever too. =20 -Mike =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vicenterc@comcast.net=20 To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> = =20 Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI =20 Do we have KE snaps in the catalog? I never seen it. =20 -- Vicente "Vince" Bortone =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "george w. kennie" <geobet@gis.net>=20 John, We often think that the wing is producing zero effect when we go K.E., = but the AOA of the wing is still positive to the datum line and as long = as we have forward movement of the airframe a force will be generated = away from the gear. That's why you have down elevator mixed to rudder in = order to nullify this effect. I hear many people state that in K.E. the = wing is not producing any lift, but it sure is reacting to the airflow = and decalage. =20 For the K.E. Snap the airframe still needs to be in a stalled condition = and it's still elevator that's necessary to produce the effect of the = stall. Due to the visual perspective the increased AOA required to stall = the wing will be undectable to the pilot as well as the judges because = in K.E. the pitch-up will take place horizontally instead of vertically. =20 But then this is just my understanding and I'm sure there are others who = will straighten me out. =20 G. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John <mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com> Pavlick=20 To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> = =20 Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI =20 Which axis do you need to show a "break" in for a knife edge snap? The = wing isn't really "lifting", the fuse is. =20 John Pavlick "george w. kennie" <geobet@gis.net> wrote: =C4=8F=C2=BB=C5=BC=20 My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm going to = stick my nose in here somewhere. =20 I think I'm with Jon on this one. =20 My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane straight = and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there is no way that = this input will induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it seems to = me, that the necessary force required to stall the main lifting surface = must come from the elevator. It would further seem to me that this input = must, by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to the fuselage = whether positive or negative. So I would have to conclude that the = attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only refer to a "pitch" = break and would be impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced = by the rudder seeing that the required result is to stall the main wing. =20 And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the = elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before rotation is = started, however miniscule the interval might be. =20 Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their = validations as these observations are strictly opinions. =20 G. =20 =20 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jon Lowe <mailto:jonlowe@aol.com> =20 To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI =20 Jim, I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same = time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted verbatim below, = that says the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path" must = happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage = break to pitch break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't = start rotation at the same time. If you initiate all three axis at the = same time, rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is = specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if = the fuselage broke and separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the = rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI Jon, =20 I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2m shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not = equate =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bfuselage=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 to = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bpitch=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 in the reading of this = definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bpitch-assessment=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 pass/fail = criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected. The = plane and therefore =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bfuselage=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 = must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and = tail of the plane will move in a conical fashion. The pilot can = initiate with all 3 axis at one time.=20 =20 It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation = occurred, and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it. =20 =20 Thanks, Jim _____ =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of Jon = Lowe Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI =20 You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same = instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will = induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are = many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely = see a rudder departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did = not occur before the roll departure started. And a judge might also not = see a pitch departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see = rudder first. It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or = both of the other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to = state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen = simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the = same t ime. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI Jon, =20 I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude = break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and = elevator first this is also correct. =20 Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com/>=20 www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com/>=20 www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com/> =20 -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org = <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?> ]On Behalf Of Jon = Lowe Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI = sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is: "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll = where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start = and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned. At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite = break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is = supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur = and the model aircraft barrelrolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). = Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 = points). Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same = criteria apply. The attitude (positive or negative) is at the competitor=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s = discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded = using the 1 point/15 degree rule." Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and = separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." = That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT = permitted. I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could = theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. = Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three = axes simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight path = has to be maintained. Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY = judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any = question away. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: rcmaster199@aol.com To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics = parlance and reference material.=20 =20 Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do=20 =20 The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes = simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate = "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically = require that the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I = don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the = fight axis....). The model would probably present the best if that's = done, so pilots may want to consider that when executing the maneuver.=20 =20 In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to = popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occu r. = Qu i te the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will = practically stall (lift much much less than the other panel) but the = starboard panel must be lifting to create the autorotation. If both = panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a = snap would not occur at the correct moment in time=20 =20 MattK=20 =20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>=20 To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>=20 Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am=20 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI=20 =20 Guys,=20 =20 I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule=20 reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation=20 from the flight path."=20 It d oe s not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY=20 APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll.=20 Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.=20 =20 A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose=20 and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight=20 axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is=20 how the pilot does it.=20 =20 Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link=20 below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC.=20 =20 http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=3D77=20 =20 thanks,=20 Jim=20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________=20 NSRCA-discussion mailing list=20 NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org = <mailto:NSRCA-di+scu+ssion@lists.nsrca.org> =20 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion=20 _____ =20 Get = <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp000500000000= 11> the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!=20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion < SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=20 _____ =20 Get = <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp000500000000= 11> the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!=20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion = mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org = http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion =20 _____ =20 Get = <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp000500000000= 11> the Moviefone Toolbar. 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Try SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> for free now! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion =20 _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10040e http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ = <http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/>=20 _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10040e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10040e http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ = <http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/>=20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion --=20 Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard@gmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8D066.9EA6C3F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dutf-8"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Brush Script MT"; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p {margin-right:0in; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} pre {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} tt {font-family:"Courier New";} span.EmailStyle20 {font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:.2in .25in 33.1pt .25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I always thought the Lomcevak was primarily a tumbling maneuver.</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A good description: = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomcevak</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> <div> <p><b><i><font size=3D4 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Brush Script MT"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script = MT";color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style: italic'>Jay </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=3D4 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Brush Script MT"><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT"; = color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Marshall</span></font></i>= </b><font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> </span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@li= sts.nsrca.org</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = [mailto:</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@li= sts.nsrca.org</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Hoard<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, June 17, = 2008 10:23 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>General pattern discussion</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma'><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left: .5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I thought a Shoulder Roll was something Captain Kirk did to escape = danger?</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:29 AM, JShulman = &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>&gt; = wrote:</span></font></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>A Lomcevak (and = it's multiple spellings) is almost like a shoulder roll. The inputs are best = done with left aileron, left rudder and down elevator. If this is done high = enough, and long enough, it becomes a KE spin with some input massaging. It's = actually slower than a snap roll cause the plane (model)&nbsp;takes a couple of rotations to fully stall. And a pattern plane, with it's long tail, = won't. The KE maneuver FAI is doing is a positive 1 1/2 snaps, from KE to KE. I = don't think it's even an option to do it negative. Even if someone wanted to = do it that way, they would probably crash. The snap must be opposite direction = of the 1/4 roll to KE and that would mean a negative snap... at the ground... = ouch</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,<br> Jason<br> <a href=3D"http://www.jasonshulman.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.shulmanaviation.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.composite-arf.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font> </p> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left: .5in'><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a href=3D"mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" = target=3D"_blank">vicenterc@comcast.net</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, June 17, = 2008 7:25 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern = discussion<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Isn't the&nbsp;snap from KE&nbsp;is called = Loncevac (sp?)?&nbsp; I agree, it is a lot faster than the standard snap.&nbsp; I = don't know why.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>--<br> Vicente &quot;Vince&quot; Bortone</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-------------- Original message = -------------- <br> From: &quot;JShulman&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" target=3D"_blank">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>&gt; </span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>and a really = fast one at that</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,<br> Jason<br> <a href=3D"http://www.jasonshulman.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.shulmanaviation.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.composite-arf.com" = target=3D"_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font> </p> <blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left: .5in'><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mike Hester<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, = 2008 8:20 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern = discussion<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Yep....there's a 1 1/2 snap = from KE in F-09.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Really cool looking = manuever too.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>-Mike</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message = ----- </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;font-size-adjust: = none;font-stretch: normal; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</a> = </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><= /font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern = discussion</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16, 2008 7:55 PM</span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s= pan></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Do we have KE snaps in the catalog?&nbsp; I = never seen it.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>--<br> Vicente &quot;Vince&quot; Bortone</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-------------- Original message = -------------- <br> From: &quot;george w. kennie&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geobet@gis.net" target=3D"_blank">geobet@gis.net</a>&gt; </span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>John,</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>We often think that the = wing is producing zero effect when we go K.E., but the AOA of the wing is still positive to the datum line and as long as we have forward movement of = the airframe a force will be generated away from the gear. That's why you have down = elevator mixed to rudder in order to nullify this effect. I hear many people = state that in K.E. the wing is not producing any lift, but it sure is reacting to = the airflow and decalage.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For the K.E. Snap the = airframe still needs to be in a stalled condition and it's still elevator that's = necessary to produce the effect of the stall. Due to the visual perspective&nbsp;the increased AOA required to stall the wing will be undectable to the pilot = as well as the&nbsp;judges because in K.E. the pitch-up will take place horizontally instead of vertically.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>But then this is just my understanding and I'm sure there are others who will straighten me = out.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>G.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font></= p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message = ----- </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;font-size-adjust: = none;font-stretch: normal; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" target=3D"_blank" = title=3D"jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><= /font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern = discussion</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16, 2008 4:57 PM</span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s= pan></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Which axis do you need to show a = &quot;break&quot; in for a knife edge snap? The wing isn't really &quot;lifting&quot;, the = fuse is.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<br> <br> <b><i><span style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>&quot;george w. kennie&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geobet@gis.net" = target=3D"_blank">geobet@gis.net</a>&gt;</span></i></b> wrote:</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>=C4=8F=C2=BB=C5=BC </span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My lip is becoming too = painful from biting it, so I think I'm going to stick my nose in here = somewhere.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I think I'm with Jon on = this one.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My logic, however flawed, = tells me that if I am flying my plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter = how much, there is no way that this input will induce a stall to the = airframe. Therefore, it seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall = the main lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further seem to me = that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have to conclude that = the attitude &quot;break&quot; referenced by the rule can only refer to a &quot;pitch&quot; break and would be impossible to confuse with an = attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required result is to stall = the main wing.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>And yes Jon, I agree that = it would be necessary to lead with the elevator in order to bring about this = attitude change before rotation is started, however miniscule the interval might = be.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Of course I'm still open to = hearing other interpretations and their validations as these observations are = strictly opinions.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>G.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message = ----- </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;font-size-adjust: = none;font-stretch: normal; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:jonlowe@aol.com" target=3D"_blank" = title=3D"jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><= /font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.o= rg</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM</span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s= pan></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left: .5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jim,<br> <br> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same time.&nbsp; You&nbsp;keep&nbsp;forgetting&nbsp;the part of = the&nbsp;RULE, quoted verbatim below, &nbsp;that says the&nbsp;&quot;fuselage = break&nbsp;and separation from the flight path&quot; must happen &quot;BEFORE THE = ROTATION IS STARTED&quot;.&nbsp; I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it = could break in &nbsp;pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the = same time.&nbsp; If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation&nbsp;WILL = start at the same&nbsp;instant, and that is specifically&nbsp;NOT = permitted.&nbsp; READ THE RULE!&nbsp; The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and = separated from the flight path first, BEFORE&nbsp;the rotation started.&nbsp; If = it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<br> <br> </span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left: .5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) &lt;<a = href=3D"mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</a>&gt;<br> To: General pattern discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<br> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jon,</span></font= ></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2= =84=A2m shocked - you are totally wrong here.&nbsp; Do not equate = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bfuselage=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 to = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bpitch=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 in the reading of this definition.&nbsp; As a judge you should NOT apply a =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bpitch-assessment=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 pass/fail = criteria to judging FAI snap rolls.&nbsp; It is completely rejected.&nbsp; The plane and therefore = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=9Bfuselage=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A5 must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane = will move in a conical fashion.&nbsp; The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis = at one time. </span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is the = responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine = how or in what order the pilot did it.&nbsp; </span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,</span></f= ont></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font>= </p> </div> </div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?" = target=3D"_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, = 2008 1:21 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>You are correct, as long as there is no roll = induced at the same instant.&nbsp; I overlooked that possibility.&nbsp; Not sure = how rudder alone will induce the &quot;supposed to be in a stalled = condition&quot; though!!&nbsp; There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on = center)&nbsp;where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure&nbsp;alone first, and thus&nbsp;conclude that departure did not occur before the roll = departure started.&nbsp;&nbsp;And a judge might&nbsp;also not&nbsp;see a pitch = departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first.&nbsp; It = is VERY clear that simultaneous roll&nbsp;with either&nbsp;or both of the other&nbsp;axes departures&nbsp;is&nbsp;NOT allowed as others have tried = to state here.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I did say that pitch and yaw departure = could happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur = at the same t ime.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: JShulman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" = target=3D"_blank">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>&gt;<br> To: General pattern discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<br> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Jon,</span></font= ></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I don't see = where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from = the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also = correct.</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,<br> Jason<br> <a href=3D"http://www.jasonshulman.com/" = target=3D"_blank">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" = target=3D"_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.composite-arf.com/" = target=3D"_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font> </p> </div> </div> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?" = target=3D"_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>= <span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, = 2008 12:11 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls&nbsp;from the FAI sporting code.&nbsp; I did a few minutes ago.&nbsp; Here it is:</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&quot;5B.7.5. <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>SNAP-ROLLS</span></b></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A snap-roll (or flick = roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a = stalled</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>attitude, with a continuous = high angle of attack</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls have the same = judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, = and</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>constant flight path = through the manoeuvre is concerned.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>At the start of a = snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from = the</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>flight path, before the = rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a = stalled</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>condition throughout the = manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft = barrelrolls</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>around, the manoeuvre must = be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly, = axial</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>rolls disguised as = snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls can be flown = both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The = attitude</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>(positive or negative) is = at the competitor=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s discretion. If the model aircraft = returns to an unstalled</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>condition during the = snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 = degree</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>rule.&quot;</span></font></p= > </div> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> Note that &quot;the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and = separation from the flight path, before the rotation is = started...&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT = permitted.&nbsp; I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically = happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved.&nbsp; Sorry Matt, the = rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously.&nbsp; = The rule also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.<br> <br> Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY = judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first.&nbsp; Takes any = question away.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: <a href=3D"mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" = target=3D"_blank">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<br> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div style=3D'-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: = -moz-initial;background-attachment:scroll; background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><font = size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma; color:black'>A &quot;Flick&quot; and a &quot;Snap&quot; roll are the = same roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and reference material.&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they = do&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate = &quot;Pitch Break&quot; from other deviations. I don't think they specifically = require that the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). = The model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want = to consider that when executing the maneuver.&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to = popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occu r. Qu i te = the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall = (lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be = lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out = of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in time&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> MattK&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> -----Original Message-----&nbsp;<br> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) &lt;<a = href=3D"mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</a>&gt;&nbsp;<br> To: General pattern discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;&nbsp;<br> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am&nbsp;<br> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> Guys,&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The = rule&nbsp;<br> reads, &quot;... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation&nbsp;<br> from the flight path.&quot;&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>It d oe s not say, &quot;MUST = SHOW PITCH BREAK.&quot; Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY&nbsp;<br> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap = roll.&nbsp;<br> Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the = nose&nbsp;<br> and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the = fight&nbsp;<br> axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that = is&nbsp;<br> how the pilot does it.&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this = link&nbsp;<br> below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in = IMAC.&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> <a href=3D"http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=3D77" = target=3D"_blank">http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=3D77<= /a>&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> thanks,&nbsp;<br> Jim&nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> _______________________________________________&nbsp;<br> NSRCA-discussion mailing list&nbsp;<br> <a href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-di+scu+ssion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&nbsp;<br> <a href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussio= n</a>&nbsp;</span></b></span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <div style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> </div> <div style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp00050= 000000011" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp0005= 0000000011">Get the Moviefone Toolbar</a>. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, &amp; = more!</span></font> </p> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><pre = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white;-moz-background-clip: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: = -moz-initial; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________</span= ></font></tt></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white;-moz-background-clip: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: = -moz-initial; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing = list</span></font></tt></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white;-moz-background-clip: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: = -moz-initial; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:black'><a href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=3D"_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></font></tt>= </pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white;-moz-background-clip: = -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: = -moz-initial; background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position= -y: 50%'><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:black'><a href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" = target=3D"_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussio= n</a></span></font></tt></pre></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>&lt; SPAN style=3D&quot;FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial&quot;&gt;</span></font> </p> <div> <div style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> </div> <div style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp00050= 000000011" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp0005= 0000000011">Get the Moviefone Toolbar</a>. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, &amp; = more!</span></font> </p> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>__________________________________= _____________=C2=A0 NSRCA-discussion mailing list=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" = target=3D"_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" = target=3D"_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussio= n</a>=C2=A0 </span></font></tt></pre></div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp00050= 000000011" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=3Daolcmp0005= 0000000011">Get the Moviefone Toolbar</a>. 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