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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To all potential judges,pilot and helpers.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Make a copy of this e-mail and take it with you to
the contests, including the NATS. The CD could not penalize you for "not
Judging" if you are removed at a pilots request. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What a beautifuly clear way to gain more
lesure time at the contests, and also enhance everyone's desire to sit in the
chair for hours due to one persons opinion.----Thanks Jim :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My opinion on where this has all degraded
to!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:38
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chris – I’m with
you! I’m going to “quiz” the judges before my next FAI round about this,
and ask for anyone to be removed if they say, “… you gatta show me a pitch
break.” </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The AMA definition is
a total disaster for snap roll if you ask me.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>chris moon<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Is it not the pilot's
responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as <BR>depicted? Why then must they
exaggerate a portion to placate a judge <BR>who wants to see it their way? Our
judging training materials <BR>distinctly say not to downgrade just because
the maneuver is not done <BR>the way you like. The example was one pilot
making sharp corners in a <BR>square loop vs another making larger more
rounded corner. Both are <BR>correct and should be judged identically but can
anyone argue that one <BR>way should be downgraded because it was not the way
"you like it" <BR>Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like
it = so <BR>what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think
that if <BR>the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am
<BR>zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue
<BR>going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking
<BR>and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way
around?<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><BR><BR><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State> wrote:<BR>> It is the "PILOTS"
responsibility to fly the maneuver as described per <BR>> the rules. If
said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or <BR>> discernable to the
judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>> <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State><BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* chris moon
<BR><MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER_X0040_HOTMAIL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Monday, June
16, 2008 5:11 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>><BR>> George - you have made an excellent point in that the
interval may by<BR>> "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It
is absolutely<BR>> wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as
judge an<BR>> exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal
interpretation of the<BR>> maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for
those judges to demand<BR>> another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall
entry to a spin<BR>> maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to
exaggerate a<BR>> portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore
your<BR>> usage of<BR>> the term "minuscule" in terms of the time
interval between pitch and<BR>> rotation is something we need to keep in
mind.<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>> george w. kennie wrote:<BR>>
> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>>
going to<BR>> > stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> > I think
I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> > My logic, however flawed, tells me that
if I am flying my plane<BR>> > straight and level and I input rudder, no
matter how much, there<BR>> is no<BR>> > way that this input will
induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>> Therefore, it<BR>> > seems to
me, that the necessary force required to stall the main<BR>> > lifting
surface must come from the elevator. It would further<BR>> seem to<BR>>
> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>>
> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<BR>> would
have<BR>> > to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule
can<BR>> only<BR>> > refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible
to confuse with an<BR>> > attitude change induced by the rudder seeing
that the required<BR>> result<BR>> > is to stall the main
wing.<BR>> > And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead
with the<BR>> > elevator in order to bring about this attitude change
before<BR>> rotation<BR>> > is started, however miniscule the
interval might be.<BR>> > Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and their<BR>> > validations as these observations are
strictly opinions.<BR>> > G.<BR>> ><BR>> > ----- Original
Message -----<BR>> > *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>> > *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday,
June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > Jim,<BR>> ><BR>> > I have
no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>> > the same
time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> > verbatim
below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from<BR>> > the
flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >
NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >
pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>> >
If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL<BR>> >
start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.<BR>>
> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>>
> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started.<BR>> > If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> > Jon Lowe<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: Woodward, Jim
(<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> SSA)<BR>> > To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<BR>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > Jon,<BR>>
><BR>> > I’m shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate
“fuselage”<BR>> > to “pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a
judge you<BR>> > should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail
criteria to<BR>> > judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected.
The plane and<BR>> > therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the
flight axis, which<BR>> > means that the nose and tail of the plane will
move in a conical<BR>> > fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis
at one time.<BR>> ><BR>> > It is the responsibility of the judge
to determine if autorotation<BR>> > occurred, and not determine how or
in what order the pilot did it.<BR>> ><BR>> > Thanks,<BR>> >
Jim<BR>> ><BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> > ] *On
Behalf Of<BR>> > *Jon Lowe<BR>> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008
1:21 PM<BR>> > *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
><BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
> You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same<BR>>
> instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone<BR>>
> will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!!<BR>>
> There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge<BR>>
> could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and thus<BR>>
> conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure<BR>>
> started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first
on<BR>> > a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is
VERY<BR>> > clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the
other axes<BR>> > departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to
state here. I<BR>> > did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen
simutaneously,<BR>> > in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur
at the same time.<BR>> > Jon Lowe<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: JShulman><BR>> > To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>>
>><BR>> > Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>> > Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> > Jon,<BR>> > I
don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show<BR>> >
attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses<BR>>
> rudder and elevator first this is also correct.<BR>> >
Regards,<BR>> > Jason<BR>> > www.jasonshulman.com<BR>> >
www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>> > www.composite-arf.com<BR>>
><BR>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > *From:*
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> >
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> > ]*On
Behalf<BR>> > Of *Jon Lowe<BR>> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008
12:11 PM<BR>> > *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
><BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the<BR>>
> FAI sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:<BR>> >
"5B.7.5. *SNAP-ROLLS*<BR>> > A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is
a rapid<BR>> > autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a
stalled<BR>> > attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack<BR>>
> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as<BR>> >
far as start and stop of the rotation, and<BR>> > constant flight path
through the manoeuvre is concerned.<BR>> > At the start of a snap-roll,
the fuselage attitude must show a<BR>> > definite break and separation
from the<BR>> > flight path, before the rotation is started, since the
model<BR>> > aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled<BR>> >
condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does<BR>> > not
occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls<BR>> > around, the manoeuvre
must be severely downgraded (more than 5<BR>> > points). Similarly,
axial<BR>> > rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely
downgraded<BR>> > (more than 5 points).<BR>> > Snap-rolls can be
flown both positive and negative, and the<BR>> > same criteria apply.
The attitude<BR>> > (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s
discretion. If<BR>> > the model aircraft returns to an unstalled<BR>>
> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely<BR>> >
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<BR>> > rule."<BR>>
><BR>> > Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite
break<BR>> > and separation from the flight path, before the rotation
is<BR>> > started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation
is<BR>> > specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as
meaning<BR>> > that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously,<BR>> > as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the
rules as<BR>> > written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes<BR>>
> simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight<BR>> >
path has to be maintained.<BR>> ><BR>> > Let's face it, the only
way to prevent severe downgrading from<BR>> > EVERY judge, not just some
judges, is to have a pitch break<BR>> > first. Takes any question
away.<BR>> > Jon Lowe<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: rcmaster199@aol.com<BR>> >
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> > Sent: Mon, 16
Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>> > A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full
scale<BR>> > aerobatics parlance and reference material.<BR>>
><BR>> > Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my
view,<BR>> > they do<BR>> ><BR>> > The latest FAI regs allow
actuation of the three main axes<BR>> > simultaneously...that is, the
regs don't specifically<BR>> > differentiate "Pitch Break" from other
deviations. I don't<BR>> > think they specifically require that the
model must rotate<BR>> > about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane<BR>> > must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight
axis....).<BR>> > The model would probably present the best if that's
done, so<BR>> > pilots may want to consider that when executing the
maneuver.<BR>> ><BR>> > In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to
preload the wing.<BR>> > Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not
have to stall<BR>> > for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon
rudder<BR>> > deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift
much<BR>> > much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel
must<BR>> > be lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels
stall,<BR>> > the model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a
snap<BR>> > would not occur at the correct moment in time<BR>>
><BR>> > MattK<BR>> ><BR>> > -----Original
Message-----<BR>> > From: Woodward, Jim (<st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
SSA)<BR>> >><BR>> > To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>> ><BR>> >><BR>> >
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am<BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > Guys,<BR>> ><BR>> > I
thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The<BR>> >
rule<BR>> > reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break
and<BR>> > separation<BR>> > from the flight path."<BR>>
><BR>> > It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO
NOT<BR>> > ERROUNIOUSLY<BR>> > APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION
initial assessment to the<BR>> > snap roll.<BR>> > Watch the whole
maneuver then render your score.<BR>> ><BR>> > A break and
separation from the flight path simply means that<BR>> > the
nose<BR>> > and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion
about<BR>> > the fight<BR>> > axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all
break at the same moment if<BR>> > that is<BR>> > how the pilot
does it.<BR>> ><BR>> > Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote
some stuff at this<BR>> > link<BR>> > below about snap rolls to
help clarify how they are done in IMAC.<BR>> ><BR>> >
http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77<BR>> ><BR>> >
thanks,<BR>> > Jim<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>> > NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>> ><BR>>
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