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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly
the maneuver as described per the rules. If said pilots chooses
to not make it obvious or discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you
should be awarded. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris
moon</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval
may by <BR>"minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely
<BR>wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge an
<BR>exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation of the
<BR>maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand
<BR>another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin
<BR>maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a
<BR>portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your usage of
<BR>the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and
<BR>rotation is something we need to keep in mind. <BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>george
w. kennie wrote:<BR>> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I
think I'm going to <BR>> stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> I think
I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I
am flying my plane <BR>> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter
how much, there is no <BR>> way that this input will induce a stall to the
airframe. Therefore, it <BR>> seems to me, that the necessary force
required to stall the main <BR>> lifting surface must come from the
elevator. It would further seem to <BR>> me that this input must, by it's
very nature produce a pitching <BR>> attitude to the fuselage whether
positive or negative. So I would have <BR>> to conclude that the attitude
"break" referenced by the rule can only <BR>> refer to a "pitch" break and
would be impossible to confuse with an <BR>> attitude change induced by the
rudder seeing that the required result <BR>> is to stall the main
wing.<BR>> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the
<BR>> elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before rotation
<BR>> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<BR>> Of
course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their <BR>>
validations as these observations are strictly opinions.<BR>>
G.<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* Jon Lowe
<MAILTO:JONLOWE@AOL.COM><BR>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16,
2008 2:10 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>><BR>> Jim,<BR>><BR>> I have no clue how you think all
three axes can be initiated at<BR>> the same time. You keep forgetting the
part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break
and separation from<BR>> the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION
IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could
break in<BR>> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same
time.<BR>> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation
WILL<BR>> start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT
permitted.<BR>> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage
broke and<BR>> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started.<BR>> If it didn't, he MUST severely
downgrade.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Jon Lowe<BR>><BR>><BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)<BR>> To:
General pattern discussion<BR>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>><BR>> Jon,<BR>>
<BR>> I’m shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate
“fuselage”<BR>> to “pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a judge
you<BR>> should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria
to<BR>> judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected. The plane
and<BR>> therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the flight axis,
which<BR>> means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical<BR>> fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one
time.<BR>> <BR>> It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if
autorotation<BR>> occurred, and not determine how or in what order the
pilot did it.<BR>> <BR>> Thanks,<BR>> Jim<BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
*From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION-BOUNCES@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION-BOUNCES@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG?>] *On Behalf Of<BR>> *Jon
Lowe<BR>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM<BR>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> You are correct, as long as there
is no roll induced at the same<BR>> instant. I overlooked that possibility.
Not sure how rudder alone<BR>> will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled
condition" though!!<BR>> There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center)
where a judge<BR>> could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and
thus<BR>> conclude that departure did not occur before the roll
departure<BR>> started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure
first on<BR>> a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is
VERY<BR>> clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other
axes<BR>> departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here.
I<BR>> did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen
simutaneously,<BR>> in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at
the same time.<BR>> Jon Lowe<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: JShulman <JSHULMAN@CFL.RR.COM
<mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com>><BR>> To: General pattern discussion
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>><BR>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008
11:22 am<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>
Jon,<BR>> I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will
show<BR>> attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one
uses<BR>> rudder and elevator first this is also correct.<BR>>
Regards,<BR>> Jason<BR>> www.jasonshulman.com <HTTP:
www.jasonshulman.com /><BR>> www.shulmanaviation.com <HTTP:
www.shulmanaviation.com /><BR>> www.composite-arf.com <HTTP:
www.composite-arf.com /><BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>
*From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION-BOUNCES@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION-BOUNCES@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG?>]*On Behalf<BR>> Of *Jon
Lowe<BR>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM<BR>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> I suggest people re-read the
definition ofsnap-rolls from the<BR>> FAI sporting code. I did a few
minutes ago. Here it is:<BR>> "5B.7.5. *SNAP-ROLLS*<BR>> A snap-roll (or
flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid<BR>> autorotative roll where the model
aircraft is in a stalled<BR>> attitude, with a continuous high angle of
attack<BR>> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls
as<BR>> far as start and stop of the rotation, and<BR>> constant flight
path through the manoeuvre is concerned.<BR>> At the start of a snap-roll,
the fuselage attitude must show a<BR>> definite break and separation from
the<BR>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the
model<BR>> aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled<BR>> condition
throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does<BR>> not occur and the
model aircraft barrelrolls<BR>> around, the manoeuvre must be severely
downgraded (more than 5<BR>> points). Similarly, axial<BR>> rolls
disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded<BR>> (more than 5
points).<BR>> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and
the<BR>> same criteria apply. The attitude<BR>> (positive or negative)
is at the competitor’s discretion. If<BR>> the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled<BR>> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is
severely<BR>> downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<BR>>
rule."<BR>><BR>> Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite
break<BR>> and separation from the flight path, before the rotation
is<BR>> started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation
is<BR>> specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as meaning<BR>>
that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously,<BR>> as long
as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as<BR>> written do NOT allow
actuation in all three axes<BR>> simultaneously. The rule also states that
a constant flight<BR>> path has to be maintained.<BR>><BR>> Let's
face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from<BR>> EVERY judge,
not just some judges, is to have a pitch break<BR>> first. Takes any
question away.<BR>> Jon Lowe<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: rcmaster199@aol.com
<MAILTO:RCMASTER199@AOL.COM><BR>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46
am<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>> A "Flick"
and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale<BR>> aerobatics parlance
and reference material.<BR>><BR>> Do these mean the same thing in model
aerobatics? In my view,<BR>> they do<BR>><BR>> The latest FAI regs
allow actuation of the three main axes<BR>> simultaneously...that is, the
regs don't specifically<BR>> differentiate "Pitch Break" from other
deviations. I don't<BR>> think they specifically require that the model
must rotate<BR>> about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane<BR>> must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight
axis....).<BR>> The model would probably present the best if that's done,
so<BR>> pilots may want to consider that when executing the
maneuver.<BR>><BR>> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the
wing.<BR>> Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not have to
stall<BR>> for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder<BR>>
deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much<BR>> much less
than the other panel) but the starboard panel must<BR>> be lifting to
create the autorotation. If both panels stall,<BR>> the model will fall out
of the sky for a distance and a snap<BR>> would not occur at the correct
moment in time<BR>><BR>> MattK<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<JIM.WOODWARD@BAESYSTEMS.COM<BR>>
<MAILTO:JIM.WOODWARD@BAESYSTEMS.COM>><BR>> To: General pattern
discussion<BR>> <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>><BR>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008
8:47 am<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>><BR>> Guys,<BR>><BR>> I thought the FAI changes explicitly
allowed flick rolls? The<BR>> rule<BR>> reads, "... fuselage attitude
must show a definite break and<BR>> separation<BR>> from the flight
path."<BR>><BR>> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO
NOT<BR>> ERROUNIOUSLY<BR>> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial
assessment to the<BR>> snap roll.<BR>> Watch the whole maneuver then
render your score.<BR>><BR>> A break and separation from the flight path
simply means that<BR>> the nose<BR>> and tail of the plane must rotate
in a conical fashion about<BR>> the fight<BR>> axis. Yaw, roll, and
pitch can all break at the same moment if<BR>> that is<BR>> how the
pilot does it.<BR>><BR>> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote
some stuff at this<BR>> link<BR>> below about snap rolls to help clarify
how they are done in IMAC.<BR>><BR>>
http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77 <BR>><BR>>
thanks,<BR>> Jim<BR>><BR>><BR>>
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