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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I thought real pilots disabled those
fancy switches.. <tic> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So then... how can you expect to score a perfect 10 if you use snap roll
switches? :)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR><B><I>Jon Lowe <<A
href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">jonlowe@aol.com</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">You
are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant.
I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce
the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many
attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a
rudder departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did
not occur before the roll departure started. And a judge
might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline
snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear that
simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes
departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state
here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen
simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the
same time.<BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To: General
pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16
Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5>
<DIV><SPAN class=420011816-16062008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Jon,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=420011816-16062008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=420011816-16062008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>I don't
see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and
separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first
this is also correct.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Jon Lowe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I suggest
people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting
code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:<BR><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>
<DIV align=left>"5B.7.5. </FONT><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2>SNAP-ROLLS</DIV></B></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV align=left>A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid
autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled</DIV>
<DIV align=left>attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV align=left>Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls
as far as start and stop of the rotation, and</DIV>
<DIV align=left>constant flight path through the manoeuvre is
concerned.</DIV>
<DIV align=left>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must
show a definite break and separation from the</DIV>
<DIV align=left>flight path, before the rotation is started, since the
model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled</DIV>
<DIV align=left>condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break
does not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls</DIV>
<DIV align=left>around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more
than 5 points). Similarly, axial</DIV>
<DIV align=left>rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded
(more than 5 points).</DIV>
<DIV align=left>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and
the same criteria apply. The attitude</DIV>
<DIV align=left>(positive or negative) is at the competitor’s
discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled</DIV>
<DIV align=left>condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree</DIV>
<DIV align=left>rule."<BR></DIV></FONT><BR>Note that "the fuselage
attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path,
before the rotation is started..." That means that
simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I
would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically
happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt,
the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes
simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight path has
to be maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe
downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch
break first. Takes any question away.<BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: #000; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff">A
"Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same
thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The
latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch
Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that
the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....).
The model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may
want to consider that when executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In
my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular
belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the
opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall
(lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be
lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will
fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the
correct moment in
time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the FAI
changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads, "...
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation <BR>from
the flight path." <BR> <BR>It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH
BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR
DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole
maneuver then render your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation
from the flight path simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the
plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw,
roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <BR>how
the pilot does it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart
guy wrote some stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to help
clarify how they are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion
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target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <BR></DIV>
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