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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>what happened to the
definition that lift is the component that overcomes gravity? When
did this change? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:shinden1@cox.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>shinden1@cox.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jpavlick@idseng.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>;
"General pattern discussion" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 5:59
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> Hey John<BR>> the wings are still
producing lift <BR>> if not,, you would not be able to do a knife edge snap
!!<BR>> it`s just a reduced load on knife edge <BR>> the wings are
producing lift in verticle uplines,, and downlines also <BR>>
Bryan<BR>> ---- John Pavlick <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jpavlick@idseng.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
wrote: <BR>>> Which axis do you need to show a "break" in for a knife edge
snap? The wing isn't really "lifting", the fuse
is.<BR>>> <BR>>> John
Pavlick<BR>>> <BR>>> "george w. kennie" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>geobet@gis.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>>  My lip is becoming
too painful from biting it, so I think I'm going to stick my nose in here
somewhere.<BR>>> <BR>>> I think I'm
with Jon on this one.<BR>>> <BR>>> My
logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane straight and level
and I input rudder, no matter how much, there is no way that this input will
induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it seems to me, that the necessary
force required to stall the main lifting surface must come from the elevator. It
would further seem to me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a
pitching attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have
to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only refer to a
"pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced
by the rudder seeing that the required result is to stall the main
wing.<BR>>> <BR>>> And yes Jon, I
agree that it would be necessary to lead with the elevator in order to bring
about this attitude change before rotation is started, however miniscule the
interval might be.<BR>>> <BR>>> Of
course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their validations as
these observations are strictly opinions.<BR>>>
<BR>>> G.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: Jon Lowe
<BR>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> <BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10
PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Jim,<BR>>>
<BR>>> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the
same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted verbatim
below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path"
must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage
break to pitch break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't
start rotation at the same time. If you initiate all three axis at the
same time, rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT
permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage
broke and separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started. If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> Jon Lowe<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<</FONT><A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jim.woodward@baesystems.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><BR>>> To: General pattern discussion <</FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><BR>>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR>>>
<BR>>>
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DIV.Section1 { page: Section1
} Jon,<BR>>>
<BR>>> Iâm shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do
not equate âfuselageâ to âpitchâ in the reading of this
definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a âpitch-assessmentâ
pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely
rejected. The plane and therefore âfuselageâ must autorotate about the
flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time.
<BR>>> <BR>>> It is the responsibility
of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine how or in
what order the pilot did it. <BR>>>
<BR>>> Thanks,<BR>>>
Jim<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
---------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Jon Lowe<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM<BR>>>
To: </FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> You are
correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I
overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the
"supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes
(e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure
alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll
departure started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first
on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear
that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes departures is NOT
allowed as others have tried to state here. I did say that
pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long
as roll doesn't occur at the same time.<BR>>> Jon
Lowe<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> From: JShulman <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jshulman@cfl.rr.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><BR>>> To: General pattern discussion <</FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><BR>>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>>> Jon,<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> I don't see where it says pitch break?
Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if
one uses rudder and elevator first this is also correct.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Regards,<BR>>> Jason<BR>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.jasonshulman.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> </FONT><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.shulmanaviation.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> </FONT><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.composite-arf.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<BR>>> <BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf
Of Jon Lowe<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM<BR>>> To:
</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>>> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls
from the FAI sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it
is:<BR>>> "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS<BR>>> A
snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the
model aircraft is in a stalled<BR>>> attitude, with a
continuous high angle of attack<BR>>> Snap-rolls have the same
judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation,
and<BR>>> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is
concerned.<BR>>> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage
attitude must show a definite break and separation from
the<BR>>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since
the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled<BR>>>
condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the
model aircraft barrelrolls<BR>>> around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial<BR>>> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely
downgraded (more than 5 points).<BR>>> Snap-rolls can be flown
both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The
attitude<BR>>> (positive or negative) is at the competitorâs
discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled<BR>>> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre
is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<BR>>>
rule."<BR>>> <BR>>> Note that "the fuselage attitude
must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the
rotation is started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and
rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as meaning
that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as no roll
is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in
all three axes simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight
path has to be maintained.<BR>>> <BR>>> Let's face it, the only way
to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have
a pitch break first. Takes any question
away.<BR>>> Jon Lowe<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: </FONT><A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>rcmaster199@aol.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>>> A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same
roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and reference material.
<BR>>> <BR>>> Do these mean the same thing in model
aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR>>> <BR>>> The latest FAI
regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is, the regs
don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't
think they specifically require that the model must rotate about it's flight
path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about
the fight axis....). The model would probably present the best if that's done,
so pilots may want to consider that when executing the maneuver.
<BR>>> <BR>>> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload
the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a
snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will
practically stall (lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard
panel must be lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the
model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the
correct moment in time <BR>>> <BR>>> MattK <BR>>>
<BR>>> -----Original Message----- <BR>>> From: Woodward, Jim (US
SSA) <</FONT><A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jim.woodward@baesystems.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> <BR>>> To: General pattern discussion <</FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> <BR>>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>>> Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI <BR>>> <BR>>> Guys,
<BR>>> <BR>>> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed
flick rolls? The rule <BR>>> reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a
definite break and separation <BR>>> from the flight path."
<BR>>> <BR>>> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please
DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>>> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial
assessment to the snap roll. <BR>>> Watch the whole maneuver then render
your score. <BR>>> <BR>>> A break and separation from the
flight path simply means that the nose <BR>>> and tail of the plane must
rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <BR>>> axis. Yaw, roll, and
pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <BR>>> how the pilot
does it. <BR>>> <BR>>> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy
wrote some stuff at this link <BR>>> below about snap rolls to help
clarify how they are done in IMAC. <BR>>> <BR>>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> <BR>>> <BR>>> thanks,
<BR>>> Jim <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion
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href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
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size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><FONT
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