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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I
think I'm going to stick my nose in here somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I'm with Jon on this one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am
flying my plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there
is no way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it
seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main lifting surface
must come from the elevator. It would further seem to me that this input must,
by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to the fuselage whether positive
or negative. So I would have to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by
the rule can only refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse
with an attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required result is
to stall the main wing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to
lead with the elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before
rotation is started, however miniscule the interval might be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and their validations as these observations are strictly
opinions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jonlowe@aol.com href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>I have no clue how you think all three axes can be
initiated at the same time. You keep forgetting the part
of the RULE, quoted verbatim below, that says the "fuselage
break and separation from the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE
ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break,
it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the
same time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time,
rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST
determine if the fuselage broke and separated from the flight path first,
BEFORE the rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST severely
downgrade.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37
pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m shocked - you are
totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage” to “pitch” in the reading
of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment”
pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely
rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the
flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is the
responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not
determine how or in what order the pilot did it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon
Lowe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16,
2008 1:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are correct, as long as there is no
roll induced at the same instant. I overlooked that possibility.
Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled
condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on
center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone
first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll
departure started. And a judge might also not see a pitch
departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first.
It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the
other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to
state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could
happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at
the same time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: JShulman <<A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>><BR>To: General
pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't see where it
says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from
the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also
correct.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I suggest people
re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting code. I
did a few minutes ago. Here it is:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"5B.7.5. <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">SNAP-ROLLS</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A snap-roll (or flick
roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is
in a stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">attitude, with a continuous high
angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls have the same judging
criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation,
and</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">constant flight path through the
manoeuvre is concerned.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the start of a snap-roll, the
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">flight path, before the rotation
is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a
stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition throughout the
manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft
barrelrolls</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rolls disguised as snap-rolls
must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls can be flown both
positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The
attitude</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(positive or negative) is at the
competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition during the snap-roll,
the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15
degree</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rule."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Note that
"the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the
flight path, before the rotation is started..." That means that
simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would
interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules
as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously.
The rule also states that a constant flight path has to be
maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading
from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break
first. Takes any question away.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">A
"Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same
thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The latest
FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is,
the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other
deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the model must
rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must
rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would
probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider
that when executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In my take, a rapid
Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both
panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon
rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much much
less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to create
the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky
for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in
time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry
in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the FAI changes
explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads, "... fuselage
attitude must show a definite break and separation <BR>from the flight
path." <BR> <BR>It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please
DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial
assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole maneuver then render
your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation from the flight path
simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the plane must rotate in a
conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all
break at the same moment if that is <BR>how the pilot does
it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some
stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to help clarify how they
are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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