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JAS,<BR>
Save my seat.<BR>
I'm going to get the popcorn.<BR>
Do you want butter on yours?<BR>
:-)<BR>
JLK<BR><BR><BR>
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From: mjfrederick@cox.net<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:28:44 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not everyone has to have elevator mixed to KE.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 4:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We often think that the wing is producing zero effect when we go K.E., but the AOA of the wing is still positive to the datum line and as long as we have forward movement of the airframe a force will be generated away from the gear. That's why you have down elevator mixed to rudder in order to nullify this effect. I hear many people state that in K.E. the wing is not producing any lift, but it sure is reacting to the airflow and decalage.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For the K.E. Snap the airframe still needs to be in a stalled condition and it's still elevator that's necessary to produce the effect of the stall. Due to the visual perspective the increased AOA required to stall the wing will be undectable to the pilot as well as the judges because in K.E. the pitch-up will take place horizontally instead of vertically.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But then this is just my understanding and I'm sure there are others who will straighten me out.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 4:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</DIV>
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<DIV>Which axis do you need to show a "break" in for a knife edge snap? The wing isn't really "lifting", the fuse is.</DIV>
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<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR><B><I>"george w. kennie" <<A href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">geobet@gis.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm going to stick my nose in here somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I'm with Jon on this one.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there is no way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further seem to me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required result is to stall the main wing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before rotation is started, however miniscule the interval might be.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their validations as these observations are strictly opinions.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jonlowe@aol.com href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage” to “pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: JShulman <<A href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also correct.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/" target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"5B.7.5. <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">SNAP-ROLLS</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly, axial</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rule."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question away.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider that when executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation <BR>from the flight path." <BR> <BR>It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole maneuver then render your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <BR>how the pilot does it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77" target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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