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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is nothing in the rule book, FAI or IAC, that
says you have to lead with anything to perform a snap.. The manuever cannot
be performed without aileron, elevator and rudder ( Georgie
<G> ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The judges guide is poorly worded, which explains
the misconceptions.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 3:44 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so
I think I'm going to stick my nose in here somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I'm with Jon on this one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am
flying my plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much,
there is no way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.
Therefore, it seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main
lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further seem to me that
this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to the
fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have to conclude that the
attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only refer to a "pitch" break and
would be impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced by the rudder
seeing that the required result is to stall the main wing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary
to lead with the elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before
rotation is started, however miniscule the interval might be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and their validations as these observations are strictly
opinions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jonlowe@aol.com href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>I have no clue how you think all three axes can
be initiated at the same time. You keep forgetting the
part of the RULE, quoted verbatim below, that says
the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path" must
happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage
break to pitch break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it
doesn't start rotation at the same time. If you initiate all three
axis at the same time, rotation WILL start at the same instant,
and that is specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE! The
judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and separated from the flight
path first, BEFORE the rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST
severely downgrade.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37
pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m shocked - you
are totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage” to “pitch” in the
reading of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a
“pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is
completely rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage” must
autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the
plane will move in a conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all
3 axis at one time. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is the
responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not
determine how or in what order the pilot did it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon
Lowe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16,
2008 1:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are correct,
as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I overlooked
that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed
to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g.
45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder
departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not
occur before the roll departure started. And a judge
might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline
snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear that
simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes
departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state
here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen
simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the
same time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: JShulman
<<A href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>><BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't see where
it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation
from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also
correct.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><DIV
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I suggest
people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting
code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"5B.7.5. <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">SNAP-ROLLS</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A snap-roll (or flick
roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is
in a stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">attitude, with a continuous
high angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls have the same
judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation,
and</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">constant flight path through
the manoeuvre is concerned.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the start of a snap-roll,
the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">flight path, before the
rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a
stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition throughout the
manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft
barrelrolls</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rolls disguised as snap-rolls
must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls can be flown both
positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The
attitude</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(positive or negative) is at
the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition during the
snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15
degree</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rule."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Note that
"the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the
flight path, before the rotation is started..." That means
that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted.
I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically
happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt,
the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes
simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight path has
to be maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe
downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch
break first. Takes any question away.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">A "Flick" and a
"Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and
reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same thing in
model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The latest FAI
regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is, the
regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other deviations.
I don't think they specifically require that the model must rotate about
it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a
conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would probably
present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider that when
executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In my take, a rapid Pitch is
desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot
not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder
deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much much less
than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to create
the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky
for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in
time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the FAI
changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads, "...
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation <BR>from
the flight path." <BR> <BR>It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH
BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR
DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole
maneuver then render your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation
from the flight path simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the
plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw,
roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <BR>how
the pilot does it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart
guy wrote some stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to help
clarify how they are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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